Kevin Allen: Wheeling and dealing likely on NHL draft day - Page 4 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

GettinIggyWithIt · 05-23-2014, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caged Great

You have to at least listen to any offer. You wouldn't be a responsible person in charge if you didn't at least see what's available.

Then when you get an offer, you evaluate it both in terms of how much sense it makes and how it will impact the team both on and off the ice.

Who knows what's out there.

If Florida offered #1 for Gio + say Wotherspoon or something similar, I would have a hard time with saying no even though Gio is so important to our team.

It just depends.

I agree with that line of logic but I think this is why I would say no to that offer. From a business standpoint you have to consider more than the transactional value on paper. I think Gio is an important role model and piece of the rebuild. He may not be the #1 dman when things start to turn around but he could be a very important piece of why things start to turn around IMO. I think the Flames have enough depth up front with young players and prospects to start flipping for younger dmen. They may not be the calibre/potential of Ekblad but I think they could get some good value for that depth if the timing was right.

FlamesAddiction · 05-23-2014, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

"I think this draft is a lot deeper than people give it credit for," Tallon said.

It seems that while there are no homerun superstars in the top 5 this year, the top 15 or so still has quite a bit of quality.

Vinny01 · 05-23-2014, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrykerSteve

Gio's had one great season. He's been in the league for a long time. If you can trade him for the first overall pick, I feel you should do it.

He was hot garbage 2 seasons ago. His value has never been higher. Sure, he may have turned some imaginary corner and will be a Norris contender and leader for the remainder of his career... Or he may prove that last season was an exception, not the rule.

Either way, if you can walk away from a draft with the top defenceman and top forward, a rebuilding team has to consider it.

I love Gio, but just dismissing the idea seems irresponsible, from a business standpoint.

Why even make this argument though? The flames will not be shopping their captain and lose a hie chunk of their leadership and risk becoming the Oilers. Secondly, Gio would never waive for the Panthers anyway regardless of what they offered.

The way the organization has talked about Gio he is here for the long haul and will not be moved.

ComixZone · 05-23-2014, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Why even make this argument though? The flames will not be shopping their captain and lose a hie chunk of their leadership and risk becoming the Oilers. Secondly, Gio would never waive for the Panthers anyway regardless of what they offered.

The way the organization has talked about Gio he is here for the long haul and will not be moved.

If Florida came to Treliving and said "1st overall for Gio, straight-up", the deal would be made.

"risk becoming the Oilers" - the Oilers aren't the way they are due to trading away veterans. They never had good veterans to trade away - that's part of the problem. Another huge part of their failures is their complete inability to utilize the draft outside of picking 1st overall (and I'd still say, even with those picks they've failed quite nicely).

The only way we'd risk becoming the Oilers is if we fired our coaching staff and management team, and hired the goofs that work for the Oilers. They're a special kind of incompetence that I doubt many others could replicate.

playmaker · 05-23-2014, 08:01 AM

If there's a dman I would trade to the panthers to get Ekblad with that 1st overall pick it's Wideman - makes sense for both sides but we'd have to add a prospect for sure.

To FLA: Wideman + Granlund / Byron + 4th
To CGY: 1st

Gio - Ekblad
Smid - Brodie
Kanzig/Breen/Wotherspoon - Russel

That looks like a solid future D core.

kn · 05-23-2014, 08:05 AM

We usually overvalue our players but here we are seriously underrating Gio's role on the team. He is not being traded for #1 overall.

Yes, he may never again reach a Norris calibre season but that's irrelevant. His drive, compete, never-take-a-shift-off attitude is crucial for mentoring the younger players and creating a positive culture going forward. I hate to say this but you take Gio out of last year's team and are we any better than the Oilers?

Vinny01 · 05-23-2014, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

If Florida came to Treliving and said "1st overall for Gio, straight-up", the deal would be made.

No it wouldn't. Gio is not waiving for Florida. I don't see him wanting to leave but if he was approached I think it would have to be a contending team. Not one of the 3 worst run teams in the league over the past 15 years

Gio is also not over the hill he has 4-5 more years where he is a top 3 Dman in my opinion. I think he had more impact on the culture change than any other skater. The captain fully buying in allowed Hartley to get everyone on his page.

I agree with some of the Oiler compares they have crappy vets, poor drafting, and a culture that let's the kids get away with too much.

Vinny01 · 05-23-2014, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playmaker

If there's a dman I would trade to the panthers to get Ekblad with that 1st overall pick it's Wideman - makes sense for both sides but we'd have to add a prospect for sure.

To FLA: Wideman + Granlund / Byron + 4th
To CGY: 1st

Gio - Ekblad
Smid - Brodie
Kanzig/Breen/Wotherspoon - Russel

That looks like a solid future D core.

No chance. The flames are eating salary to move Wideman likely he is not the centerpiece of a deal that returns 1st overall.

#-3 · 05-23-2014, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComixZone

If Florida came to Treliving and said "1st overall for Gio, straight-up", the deal would be made.

"risk becoming the Oilers" - the Oilers aren't the way they are due to trading away veterans. They never had good veterans to trade away - that's part of the problem. Another huge part of their failures is their complete inability to utilize the draft outside of picking 1st overall (and I'd still say, even with those picks they've failed quite nicely).

The only way we'd risk becoming the Oilers is if we fired our coaching staff and management team, and hired the goofs that work for the Oilers. They're a special kind of incompetence that I doubt many others could replicate.

I would say in trading Gio the biggest way we would risk becoming "like the Oilers" is in having an inept D core. We have no high end prospects, so we would go into next season with;

Brodie, Russell, and Ekblad as our top 3. None of them fully proven, even if you have allot of faith in them. And do we really know if any of them all of them can handle the step they would need to take without Gio there.

Then Edmontons scraps, Smid.

And The guy everyone wants to run out of town Wideman.

Even with the top three being young and having upside, it could take several years. There would be a good chance it would leave our goaltenders complete exposed ruining their confidence. And the Forwards would never get the because the Flames would always be hemmed in their own zone.

Losing Culture, bad Goaltending, and Lack of Vets have always been secondary problems to that in Edmonton.

ForeverFlameFan · 05-23-2014, 08:59 AM

Panthers have the space to take all of Wideman's contract, but is there a player that they want to get rid of due to poor play?

CGY's 4th OA + Wideman + prospect (maybe Agostino, Hanowski) (+ 34th OA if need be)
for
FLA's 1st OA + salary dump -- I was thinking Jovanovski.

CliffFletcher · 05-23-2014, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T@T

Who in their right mind trades their captain/leader and best player at age 30 for a kid who might take 4+ years to make an impact.

The St. Louis Blues trade captain Rob Ramage and goalie Rick Wamsley for Calgary Flames rookie Brett Hull and Steve Bozek.

Ramage was 29, the Blues captain, and probably best player. And he had a better career up to that point than Gio has had (not to mention he was drafted #1 overall himself).

cKy · 05-23-2014, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The St. Louis Blues trade captain Rob Ramage and goalie Rick Wamsley for Calgary Flames rookie Brett Hull and Steve Bozek.

Ramage was 29, the Blues captain, and probably best player. And he had a better career up to that point than Gio has had (not to mention he was drafted #1 overall himself).

30 years ago. The business has completely changed since then.

Vinny01 · 05-23-2014, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Panthers have the space to take all of Wideman's contract, but is there a player that they want to get rid of due to poor play?

CGY's 4th OA + Wideman + prospect (maybe Agostino, Hanowski) (+ 34th OA if need be)
for
FLA's 1st OA + salary dump -- I was thinking Jovanovski.

This is more realistic to me. Not sure if Wideman really has positive value right now though?

I think Wideman with $2M retained (cap hit) is a valuable trade chip but I only see him waiving for a contender.

What about Wideman @ $3.25M+Sven+Col 2nd for RoR?

ForeverFlameFan · 05-23-2014, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinny01

This is more realistic to me. Not sure if Wideman really has positive value right now though?

I think Wideman with $2M retained (cap hit) is a valuable trade chip but I only see him waiving for a contender.

What about Wideman @ $3.25M+Sven+Col 2nd for RoR?

If we are really going to go for one of those Colorado centers, I would throw money at Stastny first. If he resigns with Colorado (most likely) or runs away with a stack of money with another team, maybe RoR could possibly be in the talks of getting in Calgary. I would love getting the guy, but the thread about throwing an offer sheet at him was ridiculous.

I think Wideman's value is about the same... It may have decreased this year due to injury, but he still has been putting roughly a .5 PPG, which is pretty good for an offensive defenseman. The contract is what is making teams not even give a look at him, but we can easily retain salary.

killer_carlson · 05-23-2014, 10:39 AM

Wideman will actually have a fair bit of value on the market if we were to retain a chunk of his salary. I think he is moved in that scenario, and Florida is actually a team where it makes sense for him to go.

Aarongavey · 05-23-2014, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Wideman will actually have a fair bit of value on the market if we were to retain a chunk of his salary. I think he is moved in that scenario, and Florida is actually a team where it makes sense for him to go.

I could see Talon going for Wideman at 3 million a year and Sven + COL 2nd for 1st overall.

ForeverFlameFan · 05-23-2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I could see Talon going for Wideman at 3 million a year and Sven + COL 2nd for 1st overall.

That's overpayment. I am down for a trade like that if Sven is taken out and we give them our 2nd.

Wideman + Agostino + 4th OA + 34th OA should do it.

CliffFletcher · 05-23-2014, 01:23 PM

Guys, Wideman has very, very little trade value. Tallon can sign a similar defenceman as a free agent this summer without giving up anything.

Vinny01 · 05-23-2014, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Guys, Wideman has very, very little trade value. Tallon can sign a similar defenceman as a free agent this summer without giving up anything.

Name 1

ForeverFlameFan · 05-23-2014, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Guys, Wideman has very, very little trade value. Tallon can sign a similar defenceman as a free agent this summer without giving up anything.

Little trade value? The guy is good on the PP, has a good shot, and is a .5 PPG defenseman. Not very many defenseman do that. His season this year wasn't as good as we hoped, but that's because he was injured for roughly half of it. 21 points in 46 games is good for a defenseman. He has value.