Ring Road To Nowhere

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Southside

Yeah that airport tunnel sure put a lot of infrastructure projects that were badly needed on the shelf.

Are the Tsuu T'ina planning on building Canada's longest runway perpendicular to the proposed route of the SWRR and opening Canada's third busiest airport on the adjacent lands?

Originally Posted by Joborule

Unless you got several boatloads of money that we can use now to fund every significant project the city wants, it would be wise too. Especially when the costs to the city itself isn't that much compared to the project as a whole, that is being done by the province. If we're not doing one thing, then we'll be doing the other. The LRT is needed, but so is the SWRR since all legs but this one has been completed, complete out TUC corridor, would relive pressure off the current roads used by SW commutes, save the costs of doing in the future when it's even more necessary, and possibly more costly, as well we have only several years to get the road done before the deal is off.

As the Province is basically the City's financier when it comes to capital spending, the $133M and $5B are coming from the same place. The RR as is will fulfil its goals of providing a bypass and we can't focus on finishing the ring for the sake of closure when its cost can finance so many other more pressing projects. However, I don't think we can agree on the latter.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Don't disagree with your general point, but in this case, there is a time limit on getting the road built. Because of that, it really doesn't matter. Funding for SW Stoney has to come first.

We can't hold ourselves to such a commitment simply because we have a deal in place. It's like meeting the love of your life but not pursuing her/him because you just got engaged. You need to suck it up, break-off the engagement and prevent a whole lot more drama and heartache later on.

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

The ring road is going to get a MASSIVE amount of truck traffic off Glenmore; you can't discount that.

So although the volume my be lower in the SW portion, the other benefits that come along with it impact the entire city (less volume on 16th, crowchild, Glenmore, etc).

As we can see on Deerfoot right now, induced demand. The volume may lower but it will only be temporary.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Southside

The tunnel pretty well killed infrastructure everywhere else. I recall the City priorities for infrastructure in 2009 were; Southeast LRT, Stephen Avenue Subway, 16th Avenue NE corridor, SE Industrial - 52nd and CNR as well as Glenmore and 68th interchange, MacLeod Trail including interchanges at Heritage Drive, Lake Fraser Gate and 162nd Avenue and alas the Airport Tunnel. So, you tell me, how are we doing?

The first two items you list would be at least $2B dollars, I doubt the airport tunnel killed them. Also would the costs of any of those projects increase like the cost of doing the tunnel AFTER the runway was built?

Not to mention you didn't answer my question of what else Nenshi was pushing for in the NE quadrant. Kind of makes those assumptions others had about your statement seem like that was the real motivation eh?

[Southside]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

The first two items you list would be at least $2B dollars, I doubt the airport tunnel killed them. Also would the costs of any of those projects increase like the cost of doing the tunnel AFTER the runway was built?

Not to mention you didn't answer my question of what else Nenshi was pushing for in the NE quadrant. Kind of makes those assumptions others had about your statement seem like that was the real motivation eh?

Not agreeing with his infrastructure priorities makes one a racist? Yeah, you got me. Don't let that purple Kool aid stain your lips.

[KelVarnsen]

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Southside

Not agreeing with his infrastructure priorities makes one a racist? Yeah, you got me. Don't let that purple Kool aid stain your lips.

What don't you agree with? You mention the Airport tunnel. Considering that the cheapest option was picked for the airport trail tunnel, if anything, building the tunnel accelerated those other projects, at least on average. Perhaps it pushed back an interchange or two back a year or two. However, having to build it later would have pushed back more than one or two interchanges a few years down the road.

[You Need a Thneed]

Also, considering that the LRT projects weren't about to happen soon even if the tunnel wasn't built, and I've never seen plans or mention of 52nd Street/CNR or Glenmore/68th. Those projects have never been on any priorities list.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Southside

The tunnel pretty well killed infrastructure everywhere else. I recall the City priorities for infrastructure in 2009 were; Southeast LRT, Stephen Avenue Subway, 16th Avenue NE corridor, SE Industrial - 52nd and CNR as well as Glenmore and 68th interchange, MacLeod Trail including interchanges at Heritage Drive, Lake Fraser Gate and 162nd Avenue and alas the Airport Tunnel. So, you tell me, how are we doing?

This post makes ZERO sense. You should probably go take a basic math course, then re-read your post.

[Acey]

Originally Posted by Addick

As we can see on Deerfoot right now, induced demand. The volume may lower but it will only be temporary.

I bailed on my economics degree, but don't you have to increase supply for it to be induced demand? We've hardly done that to Deerfoot, last major change was in 2003. Stoney SE wasn't expected to change Deerfoot volumes, and it didn't. Deerfoot volumes have gone up because 300,000 more people live here since then. Nothing about Deerfoot seems anomalous to me.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Addick

We can't hold ourselves to such a commitment simply because we have a deal in place. It's like meeting the love of your life but not pursuing her/him because you just got engaged. You need to suck it up, break-off the engagement and prevent a whole lot more drama and heartache later on.

Yes, when you make a commitment, you should hold yourself to it. Beyond that, however, the whining of some inner city fools doesn't eliminate the fact that this road is a need, and one that has been identified as such for a half century now.

[You Need a Thneed]

I'll say one thing, it's easy to see why this portion is the most expensive, by far.

5 systems interchanges ( 4.5 I suppose, since one is half built) - no more than 1.5 on any other leg. That doesn't include Anderson Road interchange which is significantly more than just a plain interchange.


Twinning the bow river bridge - no other leg had a bridge like it, as the original wasn't part as part of much of a leg.


Massive amounts of earthwork to get up the hill south of 16th ave, and perhaps back down to Glenmore.


Around 50% longer than any other leg.


I suspect that the Elbow River bridge will be taller and wider than it might have been had it been built before last year. Same with the Fish Creek bridge.


Leaving room for future express lanes means that interchange bridges need to be significantly longer than otherwise - more spans.


Dealing with existing high traffic areas where traffic will need to to have temporary alignments - Glenmore, Sarcee, 37th Street, north and south of the a Elbow, 22x, McLeod Trail. No other leg has had even close to that amount of accommodation of existing traffic. That doesn't even mention the existing 16th Ave/ Stoney interchange, which is getting a major makeover, but was designed so that building the full interchange can be done without too much traffic disruption.


On the city's side, it could bring up the need for a Richmond Road/ Sarcee interchange, and perhaps a Bow Trail/ Sarcee interchange. Glenmore/Crowchild will almost certainly need a new EB to NB ramp of some kind. Glenmore will likely have to be widened between 37th and Crowchild (37th to Sarcee already included in the provinces portion. Also, this section of Glenmore is getting widened this year I think, so it'll be done by then)

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Acey

I bailed on my economics degree, but don't you have to increase supply for it to be induced demand? We've hardly done that to Deerfoot, last major change was in 2003. Stoney SE wasn't expected to change Deerfoot volumes, and it didn't.

The eastern sections of the RR have moved traffic away from Deerfoot (at times I myself have been a part of this diverted traffic) and this amounts to the temporary increase in supply on Deerfoot.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Yes, when you make a commitment, you should hold yourself to it. Beyond that, however, the whining of some inner city fools doesn't eliminate the fact that this road is a need, and one that has been identified as such for a half century now.

It's foolish to think things won't change in 50 years.

[Resolute 14]

Of course things can change in 50 years. But you will have to forgive me if i don't believe they have in this case because you say so.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by GGG

I hate the arguement if you built long ago it would have been cheaper or build it now or the price will go U in the future.

Its just not true. The cost of a construction project only increases at the rate of inflation of construction costs. This year to year is both lower and higher than the general rate of inflation but tracks it pretty closely. Why these projects cost more now is that they are designed to a hire standard. If they had built the ring road 30 years ago it would look like the mess crowchild and downtown is or deerfoot and Glenmore.

You can cut a huge chunk of the cost if you built it to the 30 year old standard. This is also true about arenas

ORLY?

I suppose labour wages have only increased at a rate in line with inflation?

Same with raw material costs? They have only gone up according to inflation rates?

I'd sure like to see where that data comes from.

And how do you know how it would have been designed? Was there some maniacal engineer at city hall that said "I'm going to make the worst effing interchange known to man at Glenmore/Crowchild, and then use that as a template for the ring road"?

Just build it already.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by Addick

As we can see on Deerfoot right now, induced demand. The volume may lower but it will only be temporary.

I can understand your argument, because it's the same one I use. Make it more convenient for drivers and they will drive. Open up a roadway (like Deerfoot) and all that happens is more people will use it. I get that.

However, if we can get the 18 wheelers off Glenmore it HAS to help. I drove that road every day for 10 years, and there was nothing worse than the stop and go traffic caused by an overloaded flat deck crawling along because he can't get going quick enough to keep up with traffic.

Maybe it won't be the miracle traffic silver bullet for the rest of the city. Maybe it does nothing. But it can only help, and that argument (induced demand) isn't ANYWHERE good enough to hold back the RR construction. It's ridiculous that the main route (Hiway 1) goes through the center of the city with stop lights every block. Even REGINA has a Hiway 1 ring road. REGINA!!!!

We don't live in REGINA!!!

[Mazrim]

A better example would be Saskatoon, who just finished Circle Drive's SW portion (and was also badly needed).

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Even REGINA has a Hiway 1 ring road. REGINA!!!!

We don't live in REGINA!!!

I thought that was still years away from being done. I haven't driven through there in over a year, and Google maps doesn't show it. Heading east from Calgary to Winnipeg, once you turn off the Ring Road onto Victoria there has to be at least 5 sets of extremely poorly timed lights.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I thought that was still years away from being done. I haven't driven through there in over a year, and Google maps doesn't show it. Heading east from Calgary to Winnipeg, once you turn off the Ring Road onto Victoria there has to be at least 5 sets of extremely poorly timed lights.

Looks like it runs through the East side of the city? I pulled this off Google maps.

I should clarify that they have a road (Hiway 1) that doesn't run through the center of the city like we do.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Looks like it runs through the East side of the city? I pulled this off Google maps.

I should clarify that they have a road (Hiway 1) that doesn't run through the center of the city like we do.

No, it is a real ring road. You access it from Leewan Dr and can drive north, then east, then south, etc.

And it has been done for at least 15 years or so.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

ORLY?

I suppose labour wages have only increased at a rate in line with inflation?

Same with raw material costs? They have only gone up according to inflation rates?

I'd sure like to see where that data comes from.

And how do you know how it would have been designed? Was there some maniacal engineer at city hall that said "I'm going to make the worst effing interchange known to man at Glenmore/Crowchild, and then use that as a template for the ring road"?

Just build it already.

Costs of materials depending on the material to very from inflation. Concrete increases at a lower rate of inflation whereas asphalt is higher than the rate of inflation. Land acquisition costs historically all the way back to the Dutch tulip bubble track inflation.

Here is a link to concrete vs. asphalt http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...66699033,d.cGU

I will try to find data on steel.

As for design I don't think some terrible engineer did it. I think an engineer following the design Standard of the day built it to that design standard. If we followed the same design standard we would have lower costs.

System interchanges did not exist outside of LA in the 60's and 70s. You just put in a cloverleaf.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by redforever

No, it is a real ring road. You access it from Leewan Dr and can drive north, then east, then south, etc.

And it has been done for at least 15 years or so.

I would argue that a semi-circle does not make a "ring."

My point about the by-pass not being done; when you head east on Victoria from the Ring Road you still have several lights to contend with. I did see signs talking about a by-pass for that area now that it is being built up. Depending on the time of day you are going through, it can take up to 30 minutes to cross Regina; with a good chunk of that being that portion east of the Ring Road.

In fact Regina is a great example of a ring road that was never really completed; and the parts that were completed were not done well. I would suggest that Regina should be an example of what not to do.