Craig's List 2014 Prospects

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by playmaker

yeah, forgot about Arnold completely, shame on me.
On the other hand he brings only 6'0 to our undersized forward pool and I need to check his faceoff stats first. I wish him all the best though.

Height isn't as important as weight IMO, when talking about size and playing a heavy, gritty game and Arnold is a sturdy 218lbs already, and only 21.

Also....IIRC he excelled at face offs in the NCAA, hopefully that translates to the NHL.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by playmaker

Well, the way I see it... there's something wrong with our center group and it's
a) a lack of size and strength
b) faceoff ability

I feel that as much as we need to find our new Joe Nieuwendyk, we're going to need our new Yelle and Otto even more desperately. In fact, Corgan Knight is IMHO the only prospect that may develop into the big, strong and faceoff winning bottom 6 centre.
Sure, Otto or Yelle are the types of guys you don't want to draft in the top 5 but as we know they are often key figures so I hope Treliving and Burke are going to address this issue with our 2nd round pick or via trade.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one of Granlund / Backlund moved before the draft.

Yeah, it would be great to find a shut down centre like Yelle or Otto. That way our scoring lines could play against secondary opposition and hopefully clean up. In this scenario Granlund isn't the third line shut down centre, he plays on the top two scoring lines if he wants a job.

The last few years the game has changed though. Now it's strength against strength with the first line going against the other teams first line, so every centre needs to be great defensively. I also agree Knight and Arnold could add much needed strength and size to our team. It will be an interesting training camp to see where they all fit in.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by playmaker

Well, the way I see it... there's something wrong with our center group and it's
a) a lack of size and strength
b) faceoff ability

I feel that as much as we need to find our new Joe Nieuwendyk, we're going to need our new Yelle and Otto even more desperately. In fact, Corgan Knight is IMHO the only prospect that may develop into the big, strong and faceoff winning bottom 6 centre.
Sure, Otto or Yelle are the types of guys you don't want to draft in the top 5 but as we know they are often key figures so I hope Treliving and Burke are going to address this issue with our 2nd round pick or via trade.

I wouldn't be surprised to see one of Granlund / Backlund moved before the draft.

I would also add lack of speed. Posters are kidding themselves if they think this management would have monahan , Backlund, and granlund as their top 3 centers 3 years from now.

I don't think they would move either Granlund or Backlund this summer, but could see it in the next couple of years. Even if they move one of them to wing it would just mean someone else from wing would be shipped off.

I see no chance that all of Backlund, Granlund, Sven, Johnny hockey, are all on this team come 3 years from now. Somebody is getting moved and for the first time in a long time that's a good thing. Flames are finally going to be able to trade a youngster and get some value back in trade. It was only a blink of an eye when our best call up was Kolanos. Lol

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I would also add lack of speed. Posters are kidding themselves if they think this management would have monahan , Backlund, and granlund as their top 3 centers 3 years from now.

I don't think they would move either Granlund or Backlund this summer, but could see it in the next couple of years. Even if they move one of them to wing it would just mean someone else from wing would be shipped off.

I see no chance that all of Backlund, Granlund, Sven, Johnny hockey, are all on this team come 3 years from now. Somebody is getting moved and for the first time in a long time that's a good thing. Flames are finally going to be able to trade a youngster and get some value back in trade. It was only a blink of an eye when our best call up was Kolanos. Lol

IMO, it's a maximum of 2 of them, and likely only 1.

JG is very likely to be a keeper and I think he'll be a part of the team.

There is really only room for one of Baertschi and Granlund (especially with JG already there). Let them both continue to develop and see how the next year or so plays out and then I see one of them (possibly both) being moved.

I really like Backlund and have been a supporter through the leaner times. I think he is going to continue to develop into a solid two-way C. But I think the Flames are going to draft another top 6 C either this year or next (hell, possibly both) and I just don't see Backlund as part of the plan. I think he is also packaged for something we need.

In fact, I think Backlund might be the first one to go - as early as this summer to Toronto or Phoenix.

The number of solid prospects that have been acquired in the last 3 years is incredible. And while I like a lot of them, I honestly think many are going to be turned over for other pieces. I think Treliving and Burke are going to build a team much like the 80s Flames - big and skilled at every position. Many of the smaller prospects we have now just won't be a part of that IMO.

[mile]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

IMO, it's a maximum of 2 of them, and likely only 1.

JG is very likely to be a keeper and I think he'll be a part of the team.

There is really only room for one of Baertschi and Granlund (especially with JG already there). Let them both continue to develop and see how the next year or so plays out and then I see one of them (possibly both) being moved.

I really like Backlund and have been a supporter through the leaner times. I think he is going to continue to develop into a solid two-way C. But I think the Flames are going to draft another top 6 C either this year or next (hell, possibly both) and I just don't see Backlund as part of the plan. I think he is also packaged for something we need.

In fact, I think Backlund might be the first one to go - as early as this summer to Toronto or Phoenix.

The number of solid prospects that have been acquired in the last 3 years is incredible. And while I like a lot of them, I honestly think many are going to be turned over for other pieces. I think Treliving and Burke are going to build a team much like the 80s Flames - big and skilled at every position. Many of the smaller prospects we have now just won't be a part of that IMO.

I disagree about Backlund - You can never have too many good centres (you can always move them to the wing) and on a championship team, I think he is an ideal third line centre who can play on the second line if needed. He doesn't need to be a top 6 C to be a part of the plan going forward

Personally I'd rather move Baertschi or Granlund to address our needs.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Nah... They are at least actually smart enough to draft Bennett or Draisaitl.

Don't kid yourself, trading down to get Ritchie plus another asset would be super smart by them and a nightmare for us down the road. Ritchie is going to be a beast of a power forward, I have zero doubt and he is exactly what the Grease need. Once a pro trainer whips him into shape and he matures he might end up the best player out of this draft class. The Oilers are not smart though, they are stupid so it will not happen. I think Ritchie will be the steal of the draft.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Granlund is a good player, but how many times have you seen a team with a player like Dallas' version of Niklas Hagman (give or take what Granlund is projecting to be at the top end) win the cup with that type of player in a second line center role?

2013, Toews + Bolland
2012, Kopitar + Richards
2011, Bergeron + Krejic
2010, Toews + Ladd/Bolland
2009, Crosby + Malkin/Staal
2008, Datsyuk + Franzen
2007, McDonald + Getzlaf
2006, Staal + Brind'Amour
2004, Lecavalier + Richards

Unless Granlund magically develops into a player close to Monahan's calibre (not impossible, just very unlikely), then he won't be quite good enough if he's going to be a center and we want to win.

I'm not saying that he's bad, it's just that if your team has him too high on the depth chart, that likely means your team just doesn't have enough talent. If you don't have enough talent and depth, you don't win. Granlund could surprise and become an awesome #2 center on par with a guy like David Krejic. It could happen, but you don't usually see TJ Brodie type jumps in the level of their play, and that's what it would take.

Of course you would say he doesn't compare to these players when he just finished his rookie pro season and first in north america. Easy to call out any young player that hasn't had a chance to prove themselves as an impact player at the NHL level and say they'll probably never become that. Every good player starts out as a nobody at one point or another. You can't put a cap on his capabilities this early while pulling up a list of much older and proven players for comparison. That's ridiculous.

If anything, he's surpassed Sven for probability of success at the next level to me. He just looks to have a better 200ft game down already, is more gritty, along with elite finishing ability. Sven is an excellent playmaker, and has elite raw skills, but hasn't got the strength on the puck and defensive game down that Granlund has which will help him translate better.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You're way off. I never called Jankowski a bust, just a poor gamble. It's too early as it's too early to pigeon hole Granlund.

Do you like Sieloff?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Do you like Sieloff?

Very little to go on but as was discussed in the Heat forum, not to many defencemen make the NHL who haven't shown some offensive talent in junior.

[Hackey]

Is Granlund likely to be the same caliber player as Toews, Crosby, Getzlaf, Kopitar, etc? No. That's not capping his capability that's just being realistic. It would be a huge surprise if he did. Not to say he can't be a quality NHLer but every player has a cap. What that cap is we don't know yet but Id say a better guess would be he won't turn into a player like that then he will. Based on your logic Kanzig could be the next Chris Pronger. Obviously it could happen but the chances are very slim.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Is Granlund likely to be the same caliber player as Toews, Crosby, Getzlaf, Kopitar, etc? No. That's not capping his capability that's just being realistic. It would be a huge surprise if he did. Not to say he can't be a quality NHLer but every player has a cap. What that cap is we don't know yet but Id say a better guess would be he won't turn into a player like that then he will. Based on your logic Kanzig could be the next Chris Pronger. Obviously it could happen but the chances are very slim.

Look Caged Great was stating Granlund's cap was as a third liner. I disagree as it's too early to say. In his rookie season he started off on the wing, was promoted to centre, and was promoted to first line centre over such vets as Ben Street, Blair Jones, Corey Locke and Brett Olson. Not only that but he set a points record for the AHL team. The guy has excelled at every stage. He also looked good the short time he was up with the Flames and good enough to do some penalty killing, even scoring a goal on the PK. You couldn't ask for much more of a 2nd rounder, so I don't think it's time to start pigeon holing him to the third line. Lets see how his story unfolds.

He also tied for 2nd in scoring at the World Juniors, 3 points ahead of Gaudreau

[Phanuthier]

I'm not an expert but I'm a little curious how Jankowski is a longshot top 6er while Granlund is a 3rd liner.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

d

Read his previous post, like follow along buddy. He wasn't saying it was opinion he was stating it as fact. After he got called he backed off to saying in his opinion. Personally, when it comes to hockey I don't think he has much of an idea what he is talking about.

Read this. It isn't an opinion it's saying, he knows and I think he knows very little.

I've seen lot of players, especially top end forwards come through all the teams in the league. Granlund is good, but compared to a lot of guys around the league, he's not nearly as good as most of the players that developed into 1st line guys at the same age. When I'm pegging players as being this or being that (say like calling Granlund a 2nd/3rd line player), I'm basing that off of watching a bunch of other players with equivalent and better skills than him and where they turned out. Could he become the next Ondrej Palat and emerge almost out of nowhere as a top end player? Sure it is possible. Palat was about equivalent in talent to Granlund at the same age, but that's more of an outlier than the norm.

For example at the same age, Jiri Hudler could skate circles around Granlund both skill wise and in his overall talent at both ends of the ice. What is he? a good 2nd line winger on a good team (or 3rd like he was when he won the Cup with Detroit). When I make declarative statements, like I think he's trending to be a 2nd line winger/3rd line C, that's because I'm taking an impartial view on players and comparing him to dozens of players that had similar talent at a similar age and where they ended up. It's just like how I've compared Poirier to Cogliano and Lombardi as his floor. Those are the only two other players that had the same combination of speed, along with their defensive and offensive talent. I also said that Poirier has a leg up on those two because he has better hands at the same age as those guys. So saying that his floor is that of a 3rd line RW shouldn't be exactly earth shattering because that's what the other two guys became, yet I received a bunch of flak because "how do you know".

If A, B, and C are present in 3 players, and after they developed the outcome was D in the older 2, then it stands to reason that it is likely that the third player will have a similar outcome.

I do not play favourites and try to remain as impartial as I can with my evaluations. By doing that, Granlund looks more like the types of guys that eventually emerged as 2nd/3rd line talent. If he becomes a 20+ goal scorer, or even a 15+ goal scorer that's reliable defensively, that will be a home run pick that we used.

After all of that, it is just my opinion. It doesn't make it any more or less valid than anyone else. I am literally calling things as I see them and I don't have any problem throwing my opinion out there. Does that mean I'm going to be right 100% of the time? No, of course not. I do not have a players almanac from 2050 or something so I can see how things unfolded. I am just doing research, evaluating the research, and project based off that information.

That includes looking at what it takes to win, and the types of players in our bullpen currently. With the mix that we have right now at the moment, we are not going to win anything in a few years unless several players vastly exceed expectations. We need more talent overall. Is it shocking that a team that is just beginning their 2nd year of a rebuild needs more talent overall?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Lets see how his story unfolds.

It's already been pointed out, but this is a tough pill to swallow coming from the guy who's been on a plight to downplay Jankowski. Why doesn't "lets see how this story unfolds" apply there as well?

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Granlund is a good player, but how many times have you seen a team with a player like Dallas' version of Niklas Hagman (give or take what Granlund is projecting to be at the top end) win the cup with that type of player in a second line center role?

2013, Toews + Bolland 3rd line center
2012, Kopitar + Richards
2011, Bergeron + Krejic
2010, Toews + Ladd/Bolland - Winger and 3rd line center
2009, Crosby + Malkin/Staal
2008, Datsyuk + Franzen - Winger
2007, McDonald + Getzlaf
2006, Staal + Brind'Amour
2004, Lecavalier + Richards

Unless Granlund magically develops into a player close to Monahan's calibre (not impossible, just very unlikely), then he won't be quite good enough if he's going to be a center and we want to win.

I'm not saying that he's bad, it's just that if your team has him too high on the depth chart, that likely means your team just doesn't have enough talent. If you don't have enough talent and depth, you don't win. Granlund could surprise and become an awesome #2 center on par with a guy like David Krejic. It could happen, but you don't usually see TJ Brodie type jumps in the level of their play, and that's what it would take.

Grandlund is more of a center, and a better one than those bolded above in your original post.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I've seen lot of players, especially top end forwards come through all the teams in the league. Granlund is good, but compared to a lot of guys around the league, he's not nearly as good as most of the players that developed into 1st line guys at the same age. When I'm pegging players as being this or being that (say like calling Granlund a 2nd/3rd line player), I'm basing that off of watching a bunch of other players with equivalent and better skills than him and where they turned out. Could he become the next Ondrej Palat and emerge almost out of nowhere as a top end player? Sure it is possible. Palat was about equivalent in talent to Granlund at the same age, but that's more of an outlier than the norm.

For example at the same age, Jiri Hudler could skate circles around Granlund both skill wise and in his overall talent at both ends of the ice. What is he? a good 2nd line winger on a good team (or 3rd like he was when he won the Cup with Detroit). When I make declarative statements, like I think he's trending to be a 2nd line winger/3rd line C, that's because I'm taking an impartial view on players and comparing him to dozens of players that had similar talent at a similar age and where they ended up. It's just like how I've compared Poirier to Cogliano and Lombardi as his floor. Those are the only two other players that had the same combination of speed, along with their defensive and offensive talent. I also said that Poirier has a leg up on those two because he has better hands at the same age as those guys. So saying that his floor is that of a 3rd line RW shouldn't be exactly earth shattering because that's what the other two guys became, yet I received a bunch of flak because "how do you know".

If A, B, and C are present in 3 players, and after they developed the outcome was D in the older 2, then it stands to reason that it is likely that the third player will have a similar outcome.

I do not play favourites and try to remain as impartial as I can with my evaluations. By doing that, Granlund looks more like the types of guys that eventually emerged as 2nd/3rd line talent. If he becomes a 20+ goal scorer, or even a 15+ goal scorer that's reliable defensively, that will be a home run pick that we used.

After all of that, it is just my opinion. It doesn't make it any more or less valid than anyone else. I am literally calling things as I see them and I don't have any problem throwing my opinion out there. Does that mean I'm going to be right 100% of the time? No, of course not. I do not have a players almanac from 2050 or something so I can see how things unfolded. I am just doing research, evaluating the research, and project based off that information.

That includes looking at what it takes to win, and the types of players in our bullpen currently. With the mix that we have right now at the moment, we are not going to win anything in a few years unless several players vastly exceed expectations. We need more talent overall. Is it shocking that a team that is just beginning their 2nd year of a rebuild needs more talent overall?

You make it sound like you know what you're talking about. All I remember is reading your so called scouting report on Nick Richie after viewing his video and it had nothing to do with what I saw or any other scouting reports.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

It's already been pointed out, but this is a tough pill to swallow coming from the guy who's been on a plight to downplay Jankowski. Why doesn't "lets see how this story unfolds" apply there as well?

Yeah, I agree lets see how his story unfolds and I hope he succeeds. My point was and is, is that he was a big gamble for us as a first rounder and so not a smart pick. Some people who have trouble with reading comprehension try to change that to I hate Jankowski.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Yeah, I agree lets see how his story unfolds and I hope he succeeds. My point was and is, is that he was a big gamble for us as a first rounder and so not a smart pick. Some people who have trouble with reading comprehension try to change that to I hate Jankowski.

It seems pretty simple to me... in one case you're angry with someone who's opinion is somewhat pessimistic and assert a wait and see approach is needed. In another case, you've posted negatively to the point of nausea (over and over and over) about another prospect, when the same wait and see approach should be applied there. It's hypocritical.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

You make it sound like you know what you're talking about. All I remember is reading your so called scouting report on Nick Richie after viewing his video and it had nothing to do with what I saw or any other scouting reports.

The main reason why my scouting report of Nick Ritchie varies so much from the "consensus" is because I am looking at different things than what most scouts look at. They look at his size and ability to crash the net to generate offense as a good thing. It really is not, because he's not that big (6-3 is good, but it's not like he's 6-5), and because he's not exceptionally tall, he would need speed to be able to beat defenders. Problem is that he's not that fast. He is exploiting the fact he's going up against teenagers instead of men. If you look at his raw shooting and passing ability, he's going to have a hard time translating as a top 6 forward. A lot of scouts thought Hugh Jessiman (Huge Specimen according to Pierre Mcguire) was going to be awesome back in 03, same thing with Benoit Pouliot in 05. If they don't have the high level talent to back it up, they are not going to succeed no matter how big they are.

I also do not read about what other opinions on a player are, because I do not like to have confirmation biases about them. It wouldn't really be my opinion if I go into a situation with a list of "expectations". And additionally with that, it's just my opinion, which I could be wrong.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Grandlund is more of a center, and a better one than those bolded above in your original post.

Granlund is better than Bolland, Ladd and Franzen? Not sure how you came to this conclusion. If Granlund turns out to be as good as any of these guys were laughing. He still has a ways to go before he is even in the same breath as these guys.