Coach bans kid from playing for not cutting his hair

[JMN]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

In my opinion, following team rules, even the minor ones helps build character and respect. Of course his hair doesn't affect his ability to hit or catch a ball, but by buying into the system, you are building teamwork skills. It's similar to school when you learn algebra. You might not use algebra directly, but it helps you train your decision, thinking and problem solving skills.

I fully understand that it's not a professional sports team, but when do you learn how to act like a professional. Do you just do your own thing and follow your own rules until you make it to the majors? Why wouldn't you use the teenage years to learn how to act professionally? Even if you don't make the majors, which 99% won't, so you still learn how to be part of a team. Having fun isn't the only benefit from sports. You can learn how to lose, and win, and be a member of a team. Wearing a uniform is part of sports.

I am saying the coach of any team takes "ownership" of the team, from the bottom level to the top. When I played baseball, soccer, basketball, volleyball and curling as a kid, that I saw the coach being the one in charge. If I wanted to be on the team, I did things his way. I didn't always like everything, but those were the rules. I always felt like it was his team, and if he wanted to cut me, he could. This was not sports at the highest level. This was from the time I was six through eighteen. I took a lot of those life lessons, and they are useful to me as an adult.

I fully respect your opinion but I disagree. Just because the kid is questioning the rule, it doesn't make him a non-team player. Who says he isn't learning team building skills from other mentors? For him to stand up for what he believes in is a great lesson for his future as well. The critical thinking allows him to rethink processes and rules that don't make sense and to improve on them. Of course in this situation, his mom didn't handle it appropriately but let's hope he learns from that.

Even though the coach takes control of the team and runs it, at this young level they should also have some flexibility. These kids are there to enjoy themselves and have fun. More importantly, it keeps them off the street and away from trouble. If the coach wants to build teamwork, let the kids think of a consistent ritual that they can agree on with a contract. Many lessons learned there.

[photon]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

In my opinion, following team rules, even the minor ones helps build character and respect.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, no one's suggesting that there should be no rules.

The bringing your uniform rule is a good example, that rule makes sense in context and doesn't make assumptions about someone based on style.

There's following team rules, then there's teaching kids that those that don't conform to what someone thinks is a good image should be marginalized rather than accepted.

What about a rule requiring all girls on the girls team to have long hair? If the coach decides that's what he likes, that girls with long hair look better? Or that all fingernails must be painted pink?

[Jimmy Stang]

I get that teams should have rules. I wore a shirt (ironed it myself) and tie before football games in high school. I ran hills after particularly poor performances in youth baseball. I have been benched for missing a mark or taking a bad penalty. All of that is demanding a certain behaviour from players, and the benefits are both immediate and life-long. Being part of a team means buying into the team mantra - that's how you succeed.

But demanding that a player alter their physical appearance to be part of a team? Completely unnecessary and over the top. If this kid's skills, attitude, team play, and discipline are top notch, he's still thrown to the side because he doesn't have a 1950s hairstyle. Yet a little jerk gets an easier ride as long as he's got a buzz cut. Backwards.

Some of the best coaches I have ever had were hard asses and pushed me to be better - on the field and off. That's because they demanded better behaviour - not a haircut.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

In my opinion, following team rules, even the minor ones helps build character and respect. Of course his hair doesn't affect his ability to hit or catch a ball, but by buying into the system, you are building teamwork skills. It's similar to school when you learn algebra. You might not use algebra directly, but it helps you train your decision, thinking and problem solving skills.

There's that word again. Maybe you can explain it to me. How does getting a haircut teach respect? Or build character?

Far as I can tell, if this kid cuts his hair to join the team, all he's learned to do is "respect" arbitrary rules, and developed the character trait of capitulation.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

There's that word again. Maybe you can explain it to me. How does getting a haircut teach respect? Or build character?

Far as I can tell, if this kid cuts his hair to join the team, all he's learned to do is "respect" arbitrary rules, and developed the character trait of capitulation.

The coach said every player on the team needs to have a hair cut. That's his rule if you want to play on his team. He's not singling out that kid because he doesn't like him, he's singling him out because he's not adhering to the rules. By cutting his hair, he's learning to respect the wishes of his coach (a person in an authority position). He's also joining his teammates in doing something that he's not crazy about, but will allow him to join in the brotherhood of playing team sports. That builds character.

Fast forward this a few years, and when his boss starts asking him to shave, wear a tie, have short hair, etc. he doesn't have a hissy fit, or get his mom to have one for him. The lessons he's learned during his teen years in baseball will serve him well during life. Bosses have all sorts of arbitrary rules. Some may seem silly to you. Once you've seen how you need to act and respect the boss's rules, the better off you'll be. I like to chew gum and I had a boss who hated gum chewers. I didn't chew around him once he told me not to. I didn't get my mom to come tell him I'm a gum chewer and that's how I express myself. I find it silly, but I respect that he is in charge.

I don't see much difference to asking for a hair cut, than asking players to wear the same hat, jersey, etc. That's the prescribed uniform for entering the field of play. If you don't want to wear the uniform, I'm fine with that, but there are other leagues you are going to have to do it in.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

The coach said every player on the team needs to have a hair cut. That's his rule if you want to play on his team. He's not singling out that kid because he doesn't like him, he's singling him out because he's not adhering to the rules. By cutting his hair, he's learning to respect the wishes of his coach (a person in an authority position). He's also joining his teammates in doing something that he's not crazy about, but will allow him to join in the brotherhood of playing team sports. That builds character.

Fast forward this a few years, and when his boss starts asking him to shave, wear a tie, have short hair, etc. he doesn't have a hissy fit, or get his mom to have one for him. The lessons he's learned during his teen years in baseball will serve him well during life. Bosses have all sorts of arbitrary rules. Some may seem silly to you. Once you've seen how you need to act and respect the boss's rules, the better off you'll be. I like to chew gum and I had a boss who hated gum chewers. I didn't chew around him once he told me not to. I didn't get my mom to come tell him I'm a gum chewer and that's how I express myself. I find it silly, but I respect that he is in charge.

I don't see much difference to asking for a hair cut, than asking players to wear the same hat, jersey, etc. That's the prescribed uniform for entering the field of play. If you don't want to wear the uniform, I'm fine with that, but there are other leagues you are going to have to do it in.

What you are describing isn't actual respect. It's following rules for the sake of following rules.

The lesson of "do what the boss tells you, even if it's wrong" is not a lesson we should be teaching kids at little league, or anywhere else for that matter. And again, this guy isn't the boss. He's the coach. The team isn't there for his benefit, it's there for the kids.

If my boss told me I wasn't allowed to chew gum, my mom would tell me to find another job.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The kid's mom is clearly a busybody and an annoying one at that, but the kid was getting punted for his hair before she made her little video.

Anyway, you mentioned you've coached kids of all genders and ages. What goddamn team uniformity rule did you have for the hair length of the girl's teams? Did you ever have to kick a girl off the team for having short hair? Too long maybe? What hair-related reasons did you have to keep a kid off the field?

And IIRC, the guy's rationale wasn't even about uniformity, but "respect" and "respect for yourself". And of course "I'm the coach". None of these are real reasons, and certainly not enough to stop a child from playing sports.

I usually asked girls to keep their hair tied-up, but thats about it.

I believe in team policies and team uniformity, but I personally dont care what the players look like, this coach does, thats his thing and hes the coach.

I once coached a team where all the kids dyed their hair red for a tournament. I also coached a team through a tournament where everyone had a faux-hawk.

The point being, as long as they were doing it together I didnt care what they're doing. I believed that a coach can push teams to come together, but the team has to come together themselves.

Its part of why I was such a big fan of Hartley post-brawl. He didnt defend his players, he didnt fight their battles for them, he put them in a position to fight their battle together and let them do the rest.

And further, kicking a kid off the team is pretty harsh, but I maintain that once he was taped his options were eliminated.

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So to be clear, you are comparing a for profit business at the highest level of sport, to a parent funded kids team.........

Nice try, but not even close. Kids sport is for kids, not for the coach.

Nice try, but not even close.

Kids sports is for kids, not for the coach.

But if it was just all fun and games then they'd probably have a coach more suited to that attitude like little Timmy's mom who brings cupcakes for half-time and where they dont keep score and everyone wins every time.

Kids play team sports for fun and to learn to interact within a team and be part of a team.

For a coach it isnt all about winning games or making a kid a tenth of a second faster, its about teaching kids how to pull together, about how motivation and determination can help you win an unwinnable battle or keep trying far beyond the point you thought you could.

Originally Posted by photon

Calling the kid a special snowflake is both an assumption about his motivation and character, as well as trying to invalidate his position based on that assumption about his character, all of which is flawed reasoning. Poisoning the well and ad hominem. Not to mention just being an appeal to emotions.

His motivations and character aren't relevant to the rightness or wrongness of the hair length rule.

Focusing on how the mom handled it is similar, it's not actually relevant to the rightness of the rule, everyone's actions just dictate how messy the situation gets but shouldn't be part of a discussion about the rule itself.

And there's enough blame to go around, intransigence can be just as provoking as videoing.

As is marginalizing the team policy just because its about the length of his hair.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Locke

As is marginalizing the team policy just because its about the length of his hair.

Nope, because I haven't said "the policy about requiring short hair should be removed because it is about short hair".

And I've never said that the team shouldn't have strict policies or shouldn't do things to promote a sense of team. Quite the opposite.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by photon

Nope, because I haven't said "the policy about requiring short hair should be removed because it is about short hair".

And I've never said that the team shouldn't have strict policies or shouldn't do things to promote a sense of team. Quite the opposite.

So whats the solution then?

Everyone is wrong in this scenario, some more than others.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Fun story: Andy Bilesky was a little league coach in my home town of Trail, BC. He's the only coach to take a team to the LLWS more than three times, and he did it five times. Andy required his kids to bring their full uniform to practice. It didn't matter that the temperature in Trail gets disgustingly hot and muggy in the summer, you brought your warm up jackets On one day a player didn't bring his jacket to practice. Andy made that player go home and write "I will bring my jacket to practice" 300 times. He brought it back to the park and was allowed to practice. Does this seem a little much? Maybe, but if you want to be on the team, you follow the rules. That player was a 12 year old Jason Bay, who later went on to be the NL rookie of the year.

So where are all the other rookies of the year from Trail? Is it possible, that the "jacket rule" didn't lead directly to Bay being named rookie of the year?

[ernie]

Originally Posted by photon

The rule is likely there because it's because long hair used to be associated with a certain social stigma. That stigma either no longer exists, or shouldn't exist, so in either case the rule needs to be depricated.

If you seriously don't think presenting yourself in a neat, tidy and professional manner doesn't matter I don't know what to say. There is a reason why most professions have de facto standards of dress and appearance and that most definitely includes neat and cut hair. Quite frankly if you can' be bothered to "put yourself together" in a meeting or customer visit it is one strike against you.

It matters and it will ALWAYS matter. To gloss over it, pretend it doesn't happen and not teach a kid that lesson is doing that kid a disservice.

A coaches job isn't just to teach the kids a sport. It's to teach kids some life lessons. This IMO is one of those lessons. You ARE going to be looked at different. People are oing to believe you take things seriously. No it might not be "fair" but life isn't fair. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.

And this is in no way comparable to racism as some are trying to do. Not even close. It's short hair and making yourself as presentable as possible.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So where are all the other rookies of the year from Trail? Is it possible, that the "jacket rule" didn't lead directly to Bay being named rookie of the year?

The other ROY of the year from Trail is Barret Jackman. I never once said it lead directly to Bay being ROY. I have lots of stories about how kids at all levels of amateur sports have to follow the coach's rules, but thought it would be fun if people knew some of the participants in it. It also showed that some of the life lessons you learn as a kid can help you as an adult. If you can't comprehend that, I can't help you.

Maybe the kid should take up golf or tennis, and can wear his hair any way he chooses.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Locke

Nice try, but not even close.

Kids sports is for kids, not for the coach.

But if it was just all fun and games then they'd probably have a coach more suited to that attitude like little Timmy's mom who brings cupcakes for half-time and where they dont keep score and everyone wins every time.

Kids play team sports for fun and to learn to interact within a team and be part of a team.

For a coach it isnt all about winning games or making a kid a tenth of a second faster, its about teaching kids how to pull together, about how motivation and determination can help you win an unwinnable battle or keep trying far beyond the point you thought you could.



.

Ok then explain how the length of his hair detrimental to the team being able to "win an unwinnable battle" or impedes the team from "trying far beyond the point you thought you could"?

Coaching is also about instilling a sense of confidence in an athlete, and acceptance within themsleves that choices they make in a game can be right. Helping them think outside the box when faced with different tactical possibilities within a game. To foster an athletes sense of individuality to try new things in a game.

To me it would seem that a coach that has such a pedantic approach as this coach would not foster a sense of individuality.

I once listened to an interview with Bobby Orr. He was talking about watching kid hockey. He was saying that it was sad to see the d-men put the puck up and off the boards everytime. He attributed it to coaching. He said that growing up he had been lucky. He had coaches that encouraged skate the puck out of the zone, encouraged him to think outside the box, to make the unusual choice when faced with different possibilities. He says that it was this coaching appoach that allowed him to develop into the player he is/was.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

The other ROY of the year from Trail is Barret Jackman. I never once said it lead directly to Bay being ROY. I have lots of stories about how kids at all levels of amateur sports have to follow the coach's rules, but thought it would be fun if people knew some of the participants in it. It also showed that some of the life lessons you learn as a kid can help you as an adult. If you can't comprehend that, I can't help you.

Maybe the kid should take up golf or tennis, and can wear his hair any way he chooses.

Maybe if this coach wants to have professional like rules, he should throw his hat into the professional coaching ring....

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Maybe if this coach wants to have professional like rules, he should throw his hat into the professional coaching ring....

It's always a good idea to wait until you are a professional to start acting like one.

[Coys1882]

This guy is going about it all wrong. If he wants to enforce a team unity then it should be baseball related not something of a personal nature.

Forcing all the kids to cut their hair isn't his decision.
Forcing all the kids to wear high socks with stirrups, or eye black, or red batting gloves is his decision.

He can create the team's image in other ways which don't force kids from being individuals away from baseball.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by ernie

If you seriously don't think presenting yourself in a neat, tidy and professional manner doesn't matter I don't know what to say. There is a reason why most professions have de facto standards of dress and appearance and that most definitely includes neat and cut hair. Quite frankly if you can' be bothered to "put yourself together" in a meeting or customer visit it is one strike against you.

It matters and it will ALWAYS matter. To gloss over it, pretend it doesn't happen and not teach a kid that lesson is doing that kid a disservice.

A coaches job isn't just to teach the kids a sport. It's to teach kids some life lessons. This IMO is one of those lessons. You ARE going to be looked at different. People are oing to believe you take things seriously. No it might not be "fair" but life isn't fair. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.

And this is in no way comparable to racism as some are trying to do. Not even close. It's short hair and making yourself as presentable as possible.

How does having long hair equate to being untidy and unprofessional? They didn't say he was disheveled. He's wearing a hat or batting helmet FFS.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Locke

So whats the solution then?

Everyone is wrong in this scenario, some more than others.

Remove the cutting the hair rule, it's antiquated and irrelevant. Focus on team rules like squiggs96 mentioned, rules that actually focus on team or behaviour and appearance on the team clock rather than trying to dictate style choices based on one person's view of what's respectable in society.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ernie

If you seriously don't think presenting yourself in a neat, tidy and professional manner doesn't matter I don't know what to say.

Can you point out where I said that? If not why would you assume that's what I'm saying?

Originally Posted by ernie

There is a reason why most professions have de facto standards of dress and appearance and that most definitely includes neat and cut hair. Quite frankly if you can' be bothered to "put yourself together" in a meeting or customer visit it is one strike against you.

Having short hair does not equate to "put yourself together", there's short haired slobs that I'd never want to put in front of a customer, and long haired professionals that will have more success than I'll ever imagine.

Originally Posted by ernie

It matters and it will ALWAYS matter. To gloss over it, pretend it doesn't happen and not teach a kid that lesson is doing that kid a disservice.

I never said to ignore professionalism. Reply to what I say, not a point I didn't make.

Teaching a kid to marginalize others based only on their appearance and that that's a good thing is probably more harmful to the kid and society than teaching him that he has to not be an individual and conform to succeed, or teaching him that success and how others see you is more important than your own individuality.. if we want to hypothesize implicit lessons being taught.

Originally Posted by ernie

It's short hair and making yourself as presentable as possible.

The length of hair doesn't make one unpresentable.

EDIT:

Why does this man look sad? Because he was rejected in his 10th interview because of his long hair.

[automaton 3]

This coach picked a strange hill to die on, but he probably feels that he is taking a stand on principle and the mother's actions backed him into a corner.

I feel bad for the kid, he is probably wishing that this would go away.