Royal Bank apologizes to outsourced workers

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I agree to an extent. I used to work at McDonald's and it was just amazing how once the clock hit a certain time all you'd see were immigrants and people who actually NEED the job. Long weekend? good luck not having 5 people call in sick. Is it fair to McDonald's or any company really that they have to put up with employees who can't work until a certain time or refuse to work weekends, long weekends....some employees think they're too good for their job and that is where most of the problems arise from. Nobody wants to go above and beyond at their low paying job. Good Canadian workers willing to work for minimum wage are scarce.

It sucks that some Canadians are paying the price but truth is foreign workers are MUCH more loyal than Canadian workers. Don't whine as much as us or complain about working certain days. I think we still need Foreign workers. Maybe scale back the amount a certain company or restaurant can use but getting rid of it altogether is not a good idea IMO.

Yeah, the problem isn't the program as much as it is abuse of the program, which I am getting the picture is starting to be a bigger issue in some places. It's too easy for some employers to get around labour laws when they are dealing with workers that either don't know the laws or are too happy to ignore them as well.

I'd be a big hypocrite if I said no more foreign in Canada as I am the child of a someone who came here as a foreign worker and refugee. I sure wouldn't want to have to do the grind that he did though.

[Wormius]

I think I would be more okay with the program provided companies didn't abuse it either, or in the case of some of those McDonalds or Tim Hortons abuse the foreign employees. It should have been to only get needed employees to fill positions, not escape from having to pay competitive salaries or benefits.

I remember a few years ago, one guy was working at bringing in nannies from China via the TFW program, and he was going on about how you could pay less than minimum wage and stuff because they (nannies) would be happy just to be in Canada, etc. It sounded pretty slimy. I guess that experience sits in the back of my head whenever I hear about companies using the TFW program.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

It's not only their English, it's their accent. I can barely understand my mom speak English let alone some Indian dude I've never met.

Okay so have you tried calling them and asking them to hire people with a not-so-pronounced accent?

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Maybe but then would it be worth it for them to stay open late if they're paying their night crew $18 hr?

I guess that's for them to answer. I don't think any business is worth running if you aren't willing to pay the staff enough to keep the doors open.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Is it fair to McDonald's or any company really that they have to put up with employees who can't work until a certain time or refuse to work weekends, long weekends....

Fair? Yes, it's fair.

If you don't pay people enough, they won't come to work and they won't take the job seriously and will walk out the door whenever they want.

If you pay them more, they will work when you ask (or tell) them to work, and they won't refuse to work weekends.

If you pay well, you can fire someone who refuses to work weekends, and hire the next person in line who wants your well-paying job. That's how it works. That's what is fair.

Originally Posted by puckluck2

some employees think they're too good for their job and that is where most of the problems arise from. Nobody wants to go above and beyond at their low paying job. Good Canadian workers willing to work for minimum wage are scarce.

If someone doesn't care about their job then they are too good for it. If you don't need it, if it's not worth it to you to go to work, you are too good for it.

If I'm 18 and I want to go away for the long weekend and my boss says no, I can decide if the job is worth it to keep, or if the weekend is worth it to have. If he pays me well, it's probably worth it to keep. If he pays me crap and I know I can go get another job on Tuesday that will also pay me crap, then let's go to the lake.

You used to work at McDonald's. Why don't you work there anymore? Because the job was too good for you?

[jayswin]

The worker shortage was most certainly a huge issue during the last boom. It was especially noticeable while playing beer league hockey during that time.

Most games start after 9:30pm, and during the boom you were pretty much SOL for stopping for fast food on the way home after. Like you literally couldn't find anything, and the exact reason was "nobody will work". Even a lot of smaller bars would close at like 11pm instead of 2am during that time. So you'd show up as a team expecting a couple hours of food and drinks and you'd be greeted with "Just an fyi, the kitchen closed at 9 and last call is at 10:45".

That's what this program is useful for. It just sucks that it gets abused.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Fair? Yes, it's fair.

If you don't pay people enough, they won't come to work and they won't take the job seriously and will walk out the door whenever they want.

If you pay them more, they will work when you ask (or tell) them to work, and they won't refuse to work weekends.

If you pay well, you can fire someone who refuses to work weekends, and hire the next person in line who wants your well-paying job. That's how it works. That's what is fair.

No, that is not what is fair. Fair is paying these guys what the norm for a fast food joint is. Mcdonald's didn't set the minimum wage and they sure aren't the first company to pay minimum wage for that type of job.

And you say if they refuse to work weekends they can hire someone else that will...well that is exactly what they are doing.

If someone doesn't care about their job then they are too good for it. If you don't need it, if it's not worth it to you to go to work, you are too good for it.

Disagree. It just means you're a spoiled brat who didn't pick the right job and McDonald's didn't hire the right employee. Just because you literally don't need the job financially doesn't mean you are too good for it. It just means you think you are too good for it. When you take a job, you do the job or do not work there.

If I'm 18 and I want to go away for the long weekend and my boss says no, I can decide if the job is worth it to keep, or if the weekend is worth it to have. If he pays me well, it's probably worth it to keep. If he pays me crap and I know I can go get another job on Tuesday that will also pay me crap, then let's go to the lake.

And agreed 100%. That's why TFW is necessary because not enough Canadians NEED a minimum wage job.

You used to work at McDonald's. Why don't you work there anymore? Because the job was too good for you?

Exactly. I was too good for it when I quit. I was 15 and worked there for 2 years but in those 2 years I was not too good for my job. I worked hard. Won employee of the month a couple times and worked my butt off and did what was asked of me. Was even in the running for Employee of the year for all Mcdonald's in Calgary. So when I got a better job I put my 2 weeks notice and quit. Not be lazy, call in sick and be a typical whiner that has been all too common for minimum wage workers.

Don't like the job? Then quit, but if not, do your job and stop whining and thinking you're better than $9 an hour. Because you're not and if you are then don't sit around and be a bad employee.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flameswin

The worker shortage was most certainly a huge issue during the last boom. It was especially noticeable while playing beer league hockey during that time.

Most games start after 9:30pm, and during the boom you were pretty much SOL for stopping for fast food on the way home after. Like you literally couldn't find anything, and the exact reason was "nobody will work". Even a lot of smaller bars would close at like 11pm instead of 2am during that time. So you'd show up as a team expecting a couple hours of food and drinks and you'd be greeted with "Just an fyi, the kitchen closed at 9 and last call is at 10:45".

That's what this program is useful for. It just sucks that it gets abused.

Shutting down the program is a huge overraction. Go after the abusers and punish them. The business owners who use the program responsibly are going to be hurt by this when they have to slash hours of operation or close on certain days due to the lack of employees.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Fair? Yes, it's fair.

If you don't pay people enough, they won't come to work and they won't take the job seriously and will walk out the door whenever they want.

If you pay them more, they will work when you ask (or tell) them to work, and they won't refuse to work weekends.

If you pay well, you can fire someone who refuses to work weekends, and hire the next person in line who wants your well-paying job. That's how it works. That's what is fair.



If someone doesn't care about their job then they are too good for it. If you don't need it, if it's not worth it to you to go to work, you are too good for it.

If I'm 18 and I want to go away for the long weekend and my boss says no, I can decide if the job is worth it to keep, or if the weekend is worth it to have. If he pays me well, it's probably worth it to keep. If he pays me crap and I know I can go get another job on Tuesday that will also pay me crap, then let's go to the lake.

You used to work at McDonald's. Why don't you work there anymore? Because the job was too good for you?

If these jobs paid well, you'd pay a lot more for your fast food and everything else. Not saying it's not a bad idea, I just don't think people realize how much of a difference a $5/hr increase would make to the bottom line.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I guess that's for them to answer. I don't think any business is worth running if you aren't willing to pay the staff enough to keep the doors open.

If a franchise owner of a local McDonalds decided to pay more, chances are he would have to raise the prices of the food being served.

Would you support higher food costs to pay employees better?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

No, that is not what is fair. Fair is paying these guys what the norm for a fast food joint is. Mcdonald's didn't set the minimum wage and they sure aren't the first company to pay minimum wage for that type of job.

The minimum wage and the "norm for a fast food joint" are irrelevant if they aren't enough to keep the staff in the building.

If it means they have to raise the prices, turn off the heat, put sawdust in the burgers, recycle the cooking oil or do god knows what, that's what they have to do. Or they can close. And boo hoo then.

Originally Posted by puckluck2

It just means you're a spoiled brat who didn't pick the right job and McDonald's didn't hire the right employee.

One person's "spoiled brat" is someone else's "not a sucker", I guess.

Anyway, my only problem with the TFW thing is the "T". It just makes it a little too easy for industries (like the fast food industry) to break the rules and sleazy companies (like McDonald's) to take advantage of people.

And here we are, with rules broken and people taken advantage of.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Dion

If a franchise owner of a local McDonalds decided to pay more, chances are he would have to raise the prices of the food being served.

Would you support higher food costs to pay employees better?

Of course. And not just because I don't eat at McDonald's, but because capitalism.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The minimum wage and the "norm for a fast food joint" are irrelevant if they aren't enough to keep the staff in the building.

If it means they have to raise the prices, turn off the heat, put sawdust in the burgers, recycle the cooking oil or do god knows what, that's what they have to do. Or they can close. And boo hoo then.




One person's "spoiled brat" is someone else's "not a sucker", I guess.

Anyway, my only problem with the TFW thing is the "T". It just makes it a little too easy for industries (like the fast food industry) to break the rules and sleazy companies (like McDonald's) to take advantage of people.

And here we are, with rules broken and people taken advantage of.

You make a huge assumption that all fast food places abuse the system, which is not true. Go after the abusers for sure but leave the repsonsible ones alone.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The minimum wage and the "norm for a fast food joint" are irrelevant if they aren't enough to keep the staff in the building.

If it means they have to raise the prices, turn off the heat, put sawdust in the burgers, recycle the cooking oil or do god knows what, that's what they have to do. Or they can close. And boo hoo then.

Yeah, but that affects the customers, as well. That's what the major complaint is. Prior to 2008 in Calgary, it was brutal. The restaurants all did what you suggested back then and it was completely unacceptable for a city our size, the way the service industry collectively cut down to small town hours. It was bush league for a world class city, and that's what this program is here for.

It was "boohoo then" for the businesses, but also the customers.

[pipewrench]

Just wait until mission creep really starts taking off with the multinationals and your job is threatened. You will then wake up too late.

The free movement of labor across borders will always start at the bottom and slowly move up the social chain. Blaming the poor is the easiest line as you can attack and marginalize a class that does not have the political connections or the money to fight. When this becomes engrained in the lower classes it will move up.

Next will be workhouses that pay the owners mortgage...oh wait.....

To be in favor of this is to not understand that this will grow. Multinational corporations are not beholden to any country but to shareholders with political capital.

Your children's job future is at risk as this expands.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Of course. And not just because I don't eat at McDonald's, but because capitalism.

Which means you don't care if fast food survives or not - am I right?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The minimum wage and the "norm for a fast food joint" are irrelevant if they aren't enough to keep the staff in the building.

If it means they have to raise the prices, turn off the heat, put sawdust in the burgers, recycle the cooking oil or do god knows what, that's what they have to do. Or they can close. And boo hoo then.

If one is good at their job they can rise via promotion to better positions and better pay. The franchisee owner of the McDonalds here in High River started out as an employee and worked his way up to management and beyond. "Minimum wage is not a norm" if you work hard and want to advance within the company.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Dion

Which means you don't care if fast food survives or not - am I right?

I like my burgers and fries. Just not from McDonald's.

The actual industry doesn't matter. It'd be the same argument if it was about people who paint houses, arrange flowers, or shovel sidewalks.

If International Snowshovelers Ltd. said "we just can't find enough people to shovel snow in Canada at the wage we are willing to pay, so we need to bring in people from SomewhereElse" to do it at the wage we are willing to pay", I wouldn't buy that either. Maybe if they paid better...

This isn't revolutionary stuff.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I like my burgers and fries. Just not from McDonald's.

The actual industry doesn't matter. It'd be the same argument if it was about people who paint houses, arrange flowers, or shovel sidewalks.

If International Snowshovelers Ltd. said "we just can't find enough people to shovel snow in Canada at the wage we are willing to pay, so we need to bring in people from SomewhereElse" to do it at the wage we are willing to pay", I wouldn't buy that either. Maybe if they paid better...

This isn't revolutionary stuff.

But this exact scenario does happen in lots of industries here. Industries that would be screwed if not for foreign workers, and industries that could really hurt our economy if they can't get people to work for reasonable wages.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by flameswin

But this exact scenario does happen in lots of industries here. Industries that would be screwed if not for foreign workers, and industries that could really hurt our economy if they can't get people to work for reasonable wages.

Maybe if they can't pay reasonable wages, they aren't a viable business and shouldn't be around anyway?

I mean, this is capitalism, right?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I like my burgers and fries. Just not from McDonald's.

The actual industry doesn't matter. It'd be the same argument if it was about people who paint houses, arrange flowers, or shovel sidewalks.

If International Snowshovelers Ltd. said "we just can't find enough people to shovel snow in Canada at the wage we are willing to pay, so we need to bring in people from SomewhereElse" to do it at the wage we are willing to pay", I wouldn't buy that either. Maybe if they paid better...

This isn't revolutionary stuff.

Fast food was never meant to be a permanent job unless you were looking to advance higher in the company. There's also the evenings and weekend and sometimes grave yard hours that people refuse to work. It's not just about "minimum wage" as you would like everyone to believe. Fast food places can't survive on a M-F.... 9-5 type hours of operation.

I worked for McDonalds for 3 years while going to High School. The pay wasn't great but what was more important to me was gaining some work experience and developing a solid reference I could use. I was a crew trainer when I left. It's hard to get jobs when you don't have a work history and sometimes taking a low wage is part of that process.