One in Three Canadians Suffered Some Form of Child Abuse

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

I haven't really read through this thread, but based on what is considered child abuse... every single one of my friends, myself included would have been considered 'abused'. I was grabbed by the throat and spanked with a length of garden hose by our neighbor for making fun of his mentally disabled daughter and throwing dirt clods at her when I was 9. And when he brought me home, my dad thanked him, and gave me more. It was just different times.

We were all spanked, my old man hit me in the face... hard quite a few times for mouthing off my mother or elders, and motivating children wasn't the same then. Parents didn't tell you what a special little boy you were, they told it more like it is, and it wasn't sugar coated. If you were being an a-hole, they called you an a-hole. If you were a loser at school, you were told you are a loser at school headed for a lifelong career at the local Esso station.

I am not saying one way is better than the other, but the current definitions of child abuse, I am assuming a lot more than 30% of people that grew up anywhere from the beginning of time up until the mid 90's, would have a case to claim they suffered it.

As weird as it sounds, having a dad that was a believer in corporal style punishment, probably saved me from a life of crime and a fixed address in Loserville. At around 13 or 14 it finally clicked, and I finally started thinking about consequences to my actions. And stopped myself from doing bad things, knowing I would have to answer to him. I was a really bad kid, borderline evil, and that was the type of upbringing I likely needed. That, or military school. Without it, I know I would not be where I am today, that's for sure.

If you had to be struck on numerous occasions for the same behaviour, doesn't that mean it didn't really work?

[_Q_]

Oh boy where to start with this?

I grew up in the 80s and 90s, so maybe at the start of when spanking your children became "bad". I never suffered through the stuff Minnie did (thanks for sharing your story by the way), but I did get beaten fairly regularly by my mom with a wooden spoon or slipper. Sometimes it was worse than other times. I don't remember what it was for most of the time, but I do remember that most of the time the only lesson I would learn was to keep stuff to myself for fear of someone finding out and getting in trouble. What that created was a shy, albeit obedient boy that was afraid to voice his opinion out of fear of punishment. In turn I got bullied in school as I was an easy target (I was also a bit chubby and short which made it easier to pick on me) which caused a lack of self worth, depression and suicidal thoughts in my teens.

My dad always used to argue with my mom that she shouldn't hit us, but she never listened. He told her that "it would mess them up", but I never really thought it would happen to me until later in my teens. Then I kind of put two and two together and started lashing out at my mom. One day when I was 15 or so, my mom got mad at me and proceeded to "spank" me so hard that she broke my new watch. So after I told her that she's a horrible person, that she owes me a new watch and that I wouldn't eat until she does so. The hunger strike went on for 3 days with my dad hounding my mom every day saying "see what you did to your boy? Is this what you want?" until she gave in, apologized and promised to never do that again. That was the end of it (I didn't get a new watch, but I got her to stop which was more important).

Anyways, a couple of years later, I got mad about something insignificant that my little brother did and I went on to beat him up"to teach him a lesson". After a few punches he kind of kneeled over, started to cry looked at me and said "why would you do this to me? What's wrong with you?" the look of fear and emotional pain in his eyes is burned in my memory and it haunts me to this day. My point with that is, I have no clue how anyone can beat someone they love. If you do it, you're honestly scum and I urge you to stop.

[Erick Estrada]

It's just different times. Go through history and lots of things that were once normal and accepted are not today. I got strapped, choked, knuckles to the noggin from teachers let alone parents. I'd be visiting the school today and the teacher would surely lose his job if that happened to my kid today but in the 80's it was accepted and the guy that knocked on my head like it was a door got promoted to vice-principal.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think its just that times back then were worse and they are better today. Parental education is better, more gender equality in the home, incomes are decent. There are outlets to metal issues like addiction or other things that were not there before.

Makes sense, when times are crappy, people act crappier and when times get better than there were, people act better.

It's a progression.

In biblical times, you killed your insolent children with stones.

At height of the Roman empire, you sold them into slavery for being a smartalec.

In the 1950s, you slapped 'em around a little bit so they'd know who was boss.

Now, you crush them with extracurricular activities and the emotional weight of some crippling 'disorder' to keep them in check. Maybe toss in a little financial instability and future shaming.

Failing that? Tranquilizers.

[Schraderbrau]

I was swatted the odd time when I was growing up and I deserved it every time. It wasn't often but it happened. I was fortunate in that I was raised in a very loving home and I feel very bad for the people who have posted some of the things that happened to them on this thread. it is not fair for children to go through that.

I look at how I was raise and even though I got the odd swat I dont not feel it was abuse one bit. I would have rather taken a swat when I deserved it, then had a parent like the many I see in today’s day an age who raise thier kids in front of Ipads and give them no attention or drug them because they have ADD or give them melatonin because they don’t sleep well. To me that is abuse, if you have a child, take the time to love that child, spend time with them, parent them, and teach them. Not doing that is abuse im my eyes as well. Sorry I am ranting.

Come to think of it maybe someone can invent a spanking App for an ipad, then those non interested parents can be involved......

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

I was swatted the odd time when I was growing up and I deserved it every time. It wasn't often but it happened. I was fortunate in that I was raised in a very loving home and I feel very bad for the people who have posted some of the things that happened to them on this thread. it is not fair for children to go through that.

I look at how I was raise and even though I got the odd swat I dont not feel it was abuse one bit. I would have rather taken a swat when I deserved it, then had a parent like the many I see in today’s day an age who raise thier kids in front of Ipads and give them no attention or drug them because they have ADD or give them melatonin because they don’t sleep well. To me that is abuse, if you have a child, take the time to love that child, spend time with them, parent them, and teach them. Not doing that is abuse im my eyes as well. Sorry I am ranting.

Come to think of it maybe someone can invent a spanking App for an ipad, then those non interested parents can be involved......

When I looked back I don't feel I deserved some of the beatings to the extremes my father sometimes went to but I did do some things that deserved some sort of discipline. I was a bad kid at times and I think it helps moving forward if you are accountable for your actions and can accept your own wrongdoings rather than deflecting everything to the act of discipline to cover the cause. Sure there were times I got beat for stuff like a hardball cracking the window while playing catch in the backyard that didn't warrant a beating but there were times where I did things that I knew I wasn't supposed to do.

I think there's a difference between being disciplined by physical means and being abused. I don't feel my parents were abusive parents as I was never beat from a parent in a drunken rage or just for the heck of it. It was always a cause and effect thing. I am aware that for more unfortunate kids that's not always the case and I feel for those people.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

When I looked back I don't feel I deserved some of the beatings to the extremes my father sometimes went to but I did do some things that deserved some sort of discipline. I was a bad kid at times and I think it helps moving forward if you are accountable for your actions and can accept your own wrongdoings rather than deflecting everything to the act of discipline to cover the cause. Sure there were times I got beat for stuff like a hardball cracking the window while playing catch in the backyard that didn't warrant a beating but there were times where I did things that I knew I wasn't supposed to do.

I think there's a difference between being disciplined by physical means and being abused. I don't feel my parents were abusive parents as I was never beat from a parent in a drunken rage or just for the heck of it. It was always a cause and effect thing. I am aware that for more unfortunate kids that's not always the case and I feel for those people.

EE I am not sure if you have children but if you do, do you use physical punishment?

[flamesfever]

I'm a lot older than most here and, from my perspective, in times of war where most of the population are involved, it's extremely important that orders from superior officers are obeyed. Therefore discipline becomes much more important in society. If you didn't obey, you could be shot. Sure there have been recent wars, but it involved only a very small part of society.

Also the World Wars did much to mess up many people. In seeing all the soldiers these days with PTSD, I often think back at how many of the men and women, returning from battle in WWI and II, were probably quite traumatized and suffering in silence. Probably most were dealing with the trauma by just drowning their sorrows in booze. These experiences were bound to have an effect on how parents raised their children.

Yes, times were much crappier in the past, however, in general I think parents did their best to raise responsible adults, even though it involved the odd spanking in response to bad behaviour. In my experience, any of the punishment, doled out, was balanced by the love and affection I received...and that I think that is the key. Obviously that element was missing by some who have posted, and I feel sorry for them.

I see the progression alright, but I think that everything is somewhat cyclical, and I wouldn't rule out a return to a more disciplinary environment in order to preserve the order in society.

[rubecube]

It's somewhat interesting to notice how many of the posters in here who claim their parents abused them quickly resort to self-blaming, which is a very common response by victims of abuse.

[redforever]

I don't buy the argument that times were different before and thus, beatings and other forms of abuse were accepted as being part and parcel of how one disciplined their children. I am older than most of you and I never grew up being beaten or abused in any way shape or form, nor do I know of any of my peers that grew up that way either. By and large, parents of all generations have loved their children and tried to do the best they can for them.

Sadly, children have always been abused and there is a big difference between abuse and discipline...and it is not a fine line that parents should find hard to recognize.

I think the biggest difference is that society today recognizes the fact that we have to talk about these kind of issues and bring them out in the open. Abuse is now reported and not hushed up or shoved under the rug. There are also avenues to access help. That is the only way to stop the cycle of abuse.

Is there more abuse now? I rather think not. Rather, it is probably like testing for medical issues and the like. With time comes more knowledge to deal with certain things.

However, some of the horror stories I have read in this thread leave me flabbergasted.

I would like to ask those of you who have shared the horrors of your childhood...were you able to talk about it at the time the abuse was going on? Or is it in just recent years that you have been able to do so? And how many have shared your story here on an internet forum but have yet to share them personally with your friends?

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by redforever

I would like to ask those of you who have shared the horrors of your childhood...were you able to talk about it at the time the abuse was going on? Or is it in just recent years that you have been able to do so? And how many have shared your story here on an internet forum but have yet to share them personally with your friends?

I was not able to speak about it at the time. Or rather, I tried, but no one believed me. Why? Because my father was a minister and my mother a minister's wife. Good Christians don't abuse their children, and most certainly, ministers of the Gospel do not abuse their children. My parents were highly skilled at manipulation and lying and any time any of us spoke up, they were able to manipulate people by saying we were rebellious, or demon possessed, or any matter of things. My father even resorted to telling someone that I was a whore who slept around, to get away with the abuse. That was an outright lie - I'm not ashamed to say that my husband was my first and only.

My parents also played us off against each other, very skillfully. By keeping us at odds with each other, we couldn't band together and compare notes, as it were, and thus get the proper authorities involved. I showed markings/bruises to a friend in high school once, and even she didn't believe me. At least, not until the day she witnessed my mother lose her #### when I told her that I'd found a job and a place to stay in Spruce Grove, and would be moving out - this was 2 weeks after graduation. Why that would send my mother into a rage remains a huge mystery to me, to this day. Obviously I have a theory about what set her off, but it's merely a theory. My friend actually stepped in between my mother's flailing fists and I, and threatened to give *her* a smackdown and also threatened to call the police. Then and only then did she back off. My friend later apologized to me for her lack of belief but it was as I said above - ministers didn't do that sort of thing, and she found it hard to accept so it was easier not to accept it.

Once I was away from home and on my own, there were people I started to tell, but trust is a hard thing, after all of the BS. I think for the most part, those I told believed me - for some, I think there was skepticism until they witnessed some untoward behavior from my parents.

As the years have passed, and I became an adult, and was able to do a lot of learning and research and became a parent myself, it's become easier to speak about. Even after all these years, there were things that my parents said or did (which weren't physical in nature, as far as abuse goes), that never occurred to me to quantify as abuse but that horrified others. There are still things I haven't told some people, though my husband knows every last bit of it, as do a very few close friends. But do I say that I experienced abuse? Yes. Even if I was the most disobedient child on the planet, I didn't deserve what I got.

And, I wasn't disobedient - I wasn't a holy terror. None of us were. We were all too scared of getting the #### beat out of us to do a whole lot other than toe the line - and toeing the line also meant putting on the act that nothing was wrong, everything was perfect - projecting anything other than the perfect minister's family was a good way to get another beating or a punch or to have our arms twisted behind our backs until they nearly broke, or to get thrown to the ground to get stomped.

We never knew what was going to set our parents off or even why - they just flipped their lids. I mean, why on earth would the fact that I was doing the normal 18 year old thing of moving out and beginning my own life set a parent off into a rage that included punching and vile name calling? Makes no sense to me. But, none of it ever has and I doubt that it ever will.

I had no idea how to be a parent - clearly I had craptastic 'role' models. My first instinct as a parent was to think about how my parents would handle any given situation - and pretty much do the exact opposite, lol. It's pretty much worked out well for us, in that regard.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by rubecube

If you had to be struck on numerous occasions for the same behaviour, doesn't that mean it didn't really work?

Yeah, good point.

When I was a kid, we had some family friends and their kids got spanked all the time. So much so that when they came to visit, their mom would bring extra brushes or a wooden spoon to do the spanking because she (and everyone) knew she was going to use it. And sure enough she did, because those kids were hellraisers. Before they were 10, they were completely immune to it, of course. The implied threat and the actual carrying out of the whooping didn't change a thing. Eventually I guess it just stopped, and they continued to be hellraisers

There have been a few stories along the lines of "if my dad wasn't tough on me, I would have been a real loser", and they may be true (and who am I to argue?), but on the other hand, every prison is full of people who got smacked around and disciplined physically.

[Sr. Mints]

I think I need a few decades of therapy to help me through all my childhood issues, but today, even the thought of hitting a child bothers me. When I see a parent yelling or getting mad at their kid in public--even if s/he's being a total ####--I get uneasy, and it upsets me for for some time after.

I don't have kids--I have dogs?--and I get the same feeling around them: I was very forgiving when they were puppies in their 'destroy, destroy, destroy everything' phase, have never so much as raised a hand to them, but I have yelled at them on occasion, and I don't like to do that, even.

The whole point of a spanking, I believe, is to shock the child, to get their attention--not to hurt or punish them. But I don't think it is really necessary; I'd like to think we know better now.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It's somewhat interesting to notice how many of the posters in here who claim their parents abused them quickly resort to self-blaming, which is a very common response by victims of abuse.

This post should not get lost in this thread...

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It's somewhat interesting to notice how many of the posters in here who claim their parents abused them quickly resort to self-blaming, which is a very common response by victims of abuse.

While true, there are certainly situations where a kid needs to be punished. Not condoning any sort of corporal punishment, but just as an example, Pylon mentioned a situation where his parents hit him after he was caught throwing things and making fun of a mentally challenged child. Yeah that deserves some serious repercussions in my mind. And while hitting is not the most effective punishment, he's probably lucky that kid's dad didn't beat the living s*** out of him.

To (loosely) quote Bill Burr: "I would never hit a woman, it's dispicable. But to say that there's no reason to hit a woman is innaccurate. There are plenty of reasons to hit a woman, it's just that only dirtbags actually do it"

I think the same thing can definitely apply to a-hole kids. Would it be more constructive to apply a loss of privilages and teach tolerance and acceptance of those who are different? Absolutely. But that doesn't mean he didn't deserve a good smack upside the head.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MattyC

And while hitting is not the most effective punishment, he's probably lucky that kid's dad didn't beat the living s*** out of him.

I disagree. Pylon said he was nine in that story. Nine year-olds are complete idiots at the best of times. As an adult, you should be able to exercise a bit of restraint. The issue in that story, from my perspective, is that pylon lacked empathy. You can't teach empathy by beating someone with a garden hose.

To be a bit of an armchair psychiatrist, I think that pylon's upbringing has likely shaped some of the views he has today towards punishment vs. discipline/rehabilitation, and I would also argue that he still displays a lack of empathy in some of his posts.

Now that probably makes me sound like a someone who was coddled as a kid, but the reality is my childhood was actually supremely ####ty and I had two abusive parents, so deduce what you will from that.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I disagree. Pylon said he was nine in that story. Nine year-olds are complete idiots at the best of times. As an adult, you should be able to exercise a bit of restraint. The issue in that story, from my perspective, is that pylon lacked empathy. You can't teach empathy by beating someone with a garden hose.

Yeah for sure, an adult should show restraint and kids obviously do stupid things. I said that there are better alternatives, but my point is kind of against the self-blaming thing. If Pylon, as a now seemingly well-adjusted adult, can look back and say "could it have been handled differently? Of course. Did I deserve to get it for being an idiot? Yes." And I dont think that falls into the same category as someone like Minnie looking back and thinking she deserved to be constantly berated and beat on for no particular reason and somehow rationalize it as her fault.

Hitting someone is not going to solve anything ever, even amongst adults. That doesn't mean that the dude at the bar who was being an idiot didnt deserve to have his teeth knocked in. And it doesn't mean a kid doesn't deserve a smack on the back of the head for being an idiot. That doesnt mean either one is right or solves anything, but when were talking about BLAME when a kid has done something egregiously wrong (and yes a 9 year old, while being an idiot, definitely knows that making fun of and throwing things at a mentally challeged kid, or any other kid, is wrong) the kid has earned something. And if they continue to do so after more appropriate punishments, it likely escalates to something more severe. And again, I view that completely different that a kid that gets a C on a school assignment and gets the s*** beat out of them.

[Fuzzy14]

I've always felt there needs to be a balance. Corporal punishment should be as a last resort, and so rarely used that it's seen as a "oh crap, I really messed up" moment by the kids.

As a child, I was spanked, slapped a couple of times... a couple of other instances... but they were so rare and far between that it didn't become part of my reality, but a sign of having pushed my parents too far.

Words can have a much greater effect than actions. To this day, I have no greater fear than to hear my parents utter the words "I'm disappointing in you".

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah for sure, an adult should show restraint and kids obviously do stupid things. I said that there are better alternatives, but my point is kind of against the self-blaming thing. If Pylon, as a now seemingly well-adjusted adult, can look back and say "could it have been handled differently? Of course. Did I deserve to get it for being an idiot? Yes." And I dont think that falls into the same category as someone like Minnie looking back and thinking she deserved to be constantly berated and beat on for no particular reason and somehow rationalize it as her fault.

I think it absolutely does. I don't think pylon deserved to be beaten with a garden hose for what he did. If this was an act of defense by the girl's dad, then maybe you could justify it but it clearly wasn't. The goal should not be simply to deter little pylon from throwing dirt and disabled girl because he's afraid of the consequences, the goal should be to teach him that what he's doing is wrong and why it's wrong.

Hitting someone is not going to solve anything ever, even amongst adults. That doesn't mean that the dude at the bar who was being an idiot didnt deserve to have his teeth knocked in. And it doesn't mean a kid doesn't deserve a smack on the back of the head for being an idiot.

Again, I disagree. If someone is becoming personally threatening to people then yeah, people have right to defend themselves. You don't have a right, nor does someone deserve to be assaulted, simply because they're not conforming to someone else's standards.

That doesnt mean either one is right or solves anything, but when were talking about BLAME when a kid has done something egregiously wrong (and yes a 9 year old, while being an idiot, definitely knows that making fun of and throwing things at a mentally challeged kid, or any other kid, is wrong) the kid has earned something.

We're not talking about blame for the action. Pylon should accept blame for what he did, he shouldn't accept blame for being assaulted. And I think nine year-olds may know that something is wrong in the sense that they're going to be punished for it, but that's not the same as knowing something is wrong because you have empathy for other human beings.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think it absolutely does. I don't think pylon deserved to be beaten with a garden hose for what he did. If this was an act of defense by the girl's dad, then maybe you could justify it but it clearly wasn't. The goal should not be simply to deter little pylon from throwing dirt and disabled girl because he's afraid of the consequences, the goal should be to teach him that what he's doing is wrong and why it's wrong.

I couldn't remember what the punsihment was for Pylon. I agree that the hose is definitely too far. And I have stated that there are obviously more effective, less physically abusive methods and that it should be explained what he did wrong and why he can't treat people that way. From the sounds of things Pylon was a bit of a terror as a kid. If those emethods had been tried continuously and obviously failed to get a message across, I think an escalation is warrented. Not rubber hose, and again there is likely a way to avoid hitting altogether, but in the moment a spank is probably warrented and if the parent has taken many other steps beforehand, I definitely wouldn't consider a spank or smack on the head as abusive. I was wrong about the rubber hose for Pylon so my bad.

Again, I disagree. If someone is becoming personally threatening to people then yeah, people have right to defend themselves. You don't have a right, nor does someone deserve to be assaulted, simply because they're not conforming to someone else's standards.

Isn't this the same thing? The guy is becoming personally threatening (not conforming ot others standards) and so can be hit (assaulted) to stop said non-conforming? And in this situation, it's likely that hitting that guy does nothing but escalate the situation, unless you can one-punch him, but that doesn't mean he didnt deserve it. These are adults so it is a different situation, but there are many cases of adult children being abused as well.

We're not talking about blame for the action. Pylon should accept blame for what he did, he shouldn't accept blame for being assaulted. And I think nine year-olds may know that something is wrong in the sense that they're going to be punished for it, but that's not the same as knowing something is wrong because you have empathy for other human beings.

I can agree to this, but that doesn't mean a person (and I want to get away from Pylon as I agree a rubber hose is excessive) can't look back on a spanking situation and go "It was innappropriate for my parent to spank me, but I earned the pain that time and since this happened few and far between and only when I really screwed up, I don't view my parents as abusive."

I think there is a line that has to be kept in mind. And also the fact that abuse generally refers to an ongoing thing. There are one-off occurances of rage that are obviously unnacceptable, but as far something like spanking or light smacks goes, if it a situation where you come home for your daily spanking each day that is definitely abusive. If it's you get hit once every couple years for being a complete jackass, your parents are probably fine and you probably deserved it that time.