Affirmative action ending at US Colleges ?

[Doodlebug]

In some of Canada's and the US's better universities, there has been discussion's to limit the amount of asian student enrollment. Understanding is asian student population percentage is much greater, as it should be due to more meritocracy based system.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/too-asian/

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Yeah, I get that, but I think the fact remains that racial minorities still likely face a lot more obstacles in the education system than whites do. I did like the idea of considering economic status as opposed to race as that still taps into the realities of inner-city education whilst not explicitly citing race.

Or in some cases, raciel majority

I know this is a particularly big issue for both sides of the spectrum. On one hand, you have very qualified students who can't get in because of race. On the other, you have an underqualified student get in but because s/he is of lower quality, they struggle their first year, get a <1.8 GPA and can't even transfer out into a different program or university because they don't meet the requirements to transfer and they are forced to drop out completely.

[an hero]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I don't get this?

please explain

Pretty much.

Affirmative Action was never in place to help whites. It was for other races.

Enrollment in California colleges and uni's halved for whites since affirmative action, to an extreme disproportion to the population (with Asians having an extremely high and likewise disproportionate amount), and no one complained.

I don't need any more proof such race based legislation is utterly useless and counterproductive to equality.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Doodlebug

In some of Canada's and the US's better universities, there has been discussion's to limit the amount of asian student enrollment. Understanding is asian student population percentage is much greater, as it should be due to more meritocracy based system.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/too-asian/

The "Asian" approach to education and discipline should be raising the bar and they shouldn't be handicapped for doing so. If that means mostly Asian Canadians attending, then so be it.

Having said that, it seemed to be from my time in university that the whole international student thing is pretty much just a cash grab for the universities. The international students pay an obscene amount to attend and many of them that I interacted with didn't seem to be above average.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The "Asian" approach to education and discipline should be raising the bar and they shouldn't be handicapped for doing so. If that means mostly Asian Canadians attending, then so be it.

Life and society are about more than this.

Part of the university experience is blossoming as an individual, having the opportunity for exposure to a wide variety of cultures, lifestyles and opinions. It is also not just about participating for your own sake, it's about participating for the sake of your university peers as well, as they benefit from being exposed to all students.

Universities are not and should not be 'puppy mills' for technical workers. In that capacity, higher education is in a massive state of decline.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Having said that, it seemed to be from my time in university that the whole international student thing is pretty much just a cash grab for the universities. The international students pay an obscene amount to attend and many of them that I interacted with didn't seem to be above average.

Keep in mind that the majority of the cost of post-secondary education in Canada is subsidized by the taxpayers. International students pay the "true", non-subsidized cost for tuition since they have not paid taxes in Canada and will likely leave the country after their education is complete. It's not so much a cash grab as it is charging the accurate level of tuition without the taxpayer subsidy. At most American universities, out-of-state students are usually charged a higher tuition fee than in-state students for the same reason.

[an hero]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Life and society are about more than this.

Part of the university experience is blossoming as an individual, having the opportunity for exposure to a wide variety of cultures, lifestyles and opinions. It is also not just about participating for your own sake, it's about participating for the sake of your university peers as well, as they benefit from being exposed to all students.

Universities are not and should not be 'puppy mills' for technical workers. In that capacity, higher education is in a massive state of decline.

I disagree. I went through university in California, and I'm glad I'm at SAIT now instead of UofC. There's no blossoming as an individual or understanding culture in college you won't derive from being anywhere in public, and universities are often counterproductive to their own supposed cause with ridiculously PC restrictions upon things like dress style, speech codes, etc. If I wanted to be indoctrinated I'd join a church.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by an hero

I disagree. I went through university in California, and I'm glad I'm at SAIT now instead of UofC. There's no blossoming as an individual or understanding culture in college you won't derive from being anywhere in public, and universities are often counterproductive to their own supposed cause with ridiculously PC restrictions upon things like dress style, speech codes, etc. If I wanted to be indoctrinated I'd join a church.

Uh, what?

Dress style restrictions? Speech Codes?

Is California a euphamism for stalinist russia?

The only kind of speech codes I've ever seen have been anti hate-speech.

[icecube]

Affirmative action is older than a few generations.

"A long history of affirmative action- for whites"

http://newsreel.org/guides/race/whiteadv.htm

[an hero]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Uh, what?

Dress style restrictions? Speech Codes?

Is California a euphamism for stalinist russia?

The only kind of speech codes I've ever seen have been anti hate-speech.

One example? I was banned from wearing a Brendan Shanahan jersey from SJSU.

Coincidentally, Jamie Baker jerseys were also banned.

Any guesses why?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by an hero

One example? I was banned from wearing a Brendan Shanahan jersey from SJSU.

Coincidentally, Jamie Baker jerseys were also banned.

Any guesses why?

No guesses as this sounds like a truly amazing story.

[an hero]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

No guesses as this sounds like a truly amazing story.

Not really amazing, just absolute stupidity.

There are two Hispanic gangs in California called the Norteños and Sureños.. the colors/numbers used? 14 red and 13 blue, respectively. Red/blue bandanas were banned, even certain grey attire was banned. Hats with N or S on it were banned. I can keep going on and on, but the notion that universities are about expressing individuality and social blossoming were thrown out the window merely by attending university. Now, supplementing my US education here in Canada, I'd rather just attend a Polytech school and skip the social indoctrination BS.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Life and society are about more than this.

Part of the university experience is blossoming as an individual, having the opportunity for exposure to a wide variety of cultures, lifestyles and opinions. It is also not just about participating for your own sake, it's about participating for the sake of your university peers as well, as they benefit from being exposed to all students.

Universities are not and should not be 'puppy mills' for technical workers. In that capacity, higher education is in a massive state of decline.

I wouldn't say that is specifically part of the university experience as it is part of the life experience. Until employers stop insisting that recruits have post-secondary education and training, those institutions will continue to be regarded as puppy mills for workers.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Until employers stop insisting that recruits have post-secondary education and training, those institutions will continue to be regarded as puppy mills for workers.

Post-secondary does't necessarily mean university, though. I don't have any problem with employers requiring applicants for most jobs to have a level of education above high school, but I'm completely against the trend in recent years for universities to be viewed as workplace training academies -- that's the role of community colleges, polytechnics, and specialized trade schools. For over a thousand years, universities as an institution have existed to provide holistic education in a broad range of subject areas (regardless of one's major), not job-specific training.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Post-secondary does't necessarily mean university, though. I don't have any problem with employers requiring applicants for most jobs to have a level of education above high school, but I'm completely against the trend in recent years for universities to be viewed as workplace training academies -- that's the role of community colleges, polytechnics, and specialized trade schools. For over a thousand years, universities as an institution have existed to provide holistic education in a broad range of subject areas (regardless of one's major), not job-specific training.

Just to be clear (because maybe you aren't and I misunderstand) but are you for AA in the hope of providing a holistic education by the means of capping enrollment on race?

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by an hero

Not really amazing, just absolute stupidity.

There are two Hispanic gangs in California called the Norteños and Sureños.. the colors/numbers used? 14 red and 13 blue, respectively. Red/blue bandanas were banned, even certain grey attire was banned. Hats with N or S on it were banned. I can keep going on and on, but the notion that universities are about expressing individuality and social blossoming were thrown out the window merely by attending university. Now, supplementing my US education here in Canada, I'd rather just attend a Polytech school and skip the social indoctrination BS.

Isnt this less about social indoctrination and more about potential drive byes putting you and the people around you at risk. That seems like a case where they are more concerned about limiting their liability than limiting the creative flower you want to be.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by an hero

Not really amazing, just absolute stupidity.

There are two Hispanic gangs in California called the Norteños and Sureños.. the colors/numbers used? 14 red and 13 blue, respectively. Red/blue bandanas were banned, even certain grey attire was banned. Hats with N or S on it were banned. I can keep going on and on, but the notion that universities are about expressing individuality and social blossoming were thrown out the window merely by attending university. Now, supplementing my US education here in Canada, I'd rather just attend a Polytech school and skip the social indoctrination BS.

Sounds more like an issue with local gangs than an overall university problem. There are definitely advantages/disadvantages to university-vs-college-vs-tech school, but dress code is not one.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Post-secondary does't necessarily mean university, though. I don't have any problem with employers requiring applicants for most jobs to have a level of education above high school, but I'm completely against the trend in recent years for universities to be viewed as workplace training academies -- that's the role of community colleges, polytechnics, and specialized trade schools. For over a thousand years, universities as an institution have existed to provide holistic education in a broad range of subject areas (regardless of one's major), not job-specific training.

Don't forget, for over a thousand years, men typically took on the occupation of their father and women didn't have occupations. Obviously labour markets and worker competition has affected the roll of universities and a university degree became a way to filter potential workers. I don't think the roll of most universities can go back to the way it was unless some other type of filtering system is developed. The modern world just isn't set up for it any more.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Just to be clear (because maybe you aren't and I misunderstand) but are you for AA in the hope of providing a holistic education by the means of capping enrollment on race?

My comment was only about the changing role of universities in society over the past ~30 years. I didn't say anything either for or against affirmative action.

[an hero]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Sounds more like an issue with local gangs than an overall university problem. There are definitely advantages/disadvantages to university-vs-college-vs-tech school, but dress code is not one.

That is a California-wide dress code, not only for universities, but junior colleges and primary/secondary school. It's not merely an issue of local gangs, given Norteños and Sureños are statewide.

A cousin of mine teaches at UCSC and has been utterly flip-out pissed over the speech codes implemented there.

One advantage of avoiding universities and favouring polytech schools is more for people who are actually serious about their career, who already have a wide variety of knowledge, and an intent on learning more outside school anyways, and prefer to skip the unnecessary "general education" and "indoctrination" aspects of university.

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Isnt this less about social indoctrination and more about potential drive byes putting you and the people around you at risk. That seems like a case where they are more concerned about limiting their liability than limiting the creative flower you want to be.

That might be an issue for, say, UC Berkeley, but SJSU? It's in an area where cops are called babysitters because they don't do much else besides babysit drunk college students meandering around out in public. I would suggest learning more about these circumstances than coming to a conclusion clearly on presumptions you are rather clueless about.