[News] Burke says he is unlikely to trade up... hasn't watched Bennett

[strombad]

I have to say, outside of Bennett (who is the only top 3 guy I think might drop) I don't really care WHO we get at this point. First I like Draisaitl, then I don't, then I like Dal Colle, then I don't, then I like both and don't want Ritchie, then I don't mind Ritchie and... blegh.

I mostly just want the draft to be here not because of who we COULD pick but just for who we DO pick, then I can worry about how they fit into the organization.

I wasn't stoked on Monahan when that was our pick, but ended up super wrong.

[moon]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

I actually dont get your argument here.

My point is that is was ridiculous to say you don't understand why anyone would want him as a prospect.

If people prefer other guys over him fair enough that is their opinion but to say you don't understand how someone would want an elite level talent as a prospect makes no sense.

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

I'll never understand why anyone would prefer Shinkarik over Poirier or even want him as a prospect.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by moon

My point is that is was ridiculous to say you don't understand why anyone would want him as a prospect.
.

I took that to mean he didn't have much interest in him as a prospect. You don't have to be this purposely obtuse all the time or go looking for an argument in every reply.

[moon]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I took that to mean he didn't have much interest in him as a prospect. You don't have to be this purposely obtuse all the time or go looking for an argument in every reply.

Speaking of looking for an argument...

He said he didn't understand how anyone would want him as a prospect seems pretty different from himself not wanting him as a prospect. It isn't being obtuse or looking for an argument it is going by what was posted.

If he meant him personally and not anyone he can easily say that but even still that is a pretty ridiculous position given Shinkaruk's skill.

[Gaskal]

If Burke was GM last draft, I'm pretty sure Shinkaruk as a rumored head case would be on the Do Not Draft list.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Zevo

If I remember correctly, Shinkaruk interviewed horribly and teams dropped him down on their lists. Kind of points toward possible character issues.

That plus his either refusal to back check or low IQ.

Plus he lived off Etem and regressed since Etem left.

I was told before the draft he's still a spoiled snot nosed kid and hopefully the flames pass.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Draisaitl isn't nearly as slow as you guys seem to think.

A lot will be told at the NHL draft combine. I think there are going to be a lot of surprises all around. Looking forward to it just to end some of these arguments.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

A lot will be told at the NHL draft combine. I think there are going to be a lot of surprises all around. Looking forward to it just to end some of these arguments.

Definitely. Like most of us, my opinions are pretty much based on scouting reports and highlight reels.

I also really believe that when it comes down to it and you have a centre vs. a winger, and the skill-sets are close, you draft the centre.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

He was also a late cut to the WJHC.

You don't think those guys care about attitude and team building? You don't think those guys did research about what kind of kid he was and talked to him?

I am sure he does have attitude but we are talking about him having such an attitude that you wouldn't want him in your organiztion at all despite him having elite offensive skills. There is a huge difference between those two things.

If the rumors of his character are true... if he is indeed a 'head case' or something of that nature, then yes - some teams will not be willing to add a kid like him to their prospect base even for free.

Burke came out and said this himself not very long ago. If a player who is ranked in the first round but has character issues and drops into the 2nd round, he is not a bargain in that round either. Burke (and it seems the Flames by the gist of that article - though I am going off by memory here) just simply crosses off the name completely.

Headcases pose distractions and make it more difficult to build a team. I don't mind giving up some highly-touted prospect with loads of skill and potential if it means:
1) He may never develop anyways (headcases often don't)
2) He may impede the development of other prospects, or help to create a poor environment through 'distractions'.

I remember when this board freaked out about Kabanov. Yes, he wasn't nearly as highly touted as a kid like Shinkaruk - but this is exactly what we are talking about when passing up a highly touted prospect for 'free'. Sure, the "Russian Factor" probably helped to drop him as well, but in 2010 he was seen as a "Top 3 talent" in the draft. He fell all the way to the 3rd round - one spot exactly after Calgary took Max Reinhart. Lots of people freaked out over it.

He also went to the Islanders - an organization that has done two things with their prospects - developed them very well, and sometimes rushed them to the NHL. Kabanov ended up not being a flight risk at all - he did his time in junior, did his time in the AHL, and now he has signed on in the KHL I believe. He had top 3 talent in the draft, but his character prevented him from ever succeeding.

Is Shinkaruk like that? Is Ho-Sang or DeAngelo this year like that? Unless we know these prospects personally, we don't know. However, I am fine with the Flames passing on Shinkaruk last year and any other prospect this year because of perceived character issues.

Give me another Reinhart over Kabanov any day of the week.

[moon]

I haven't seen any reports to indicate that Shinkaruk is close to a Kabanov or even Ho Sang/De Angelo level of head case. With those guys there were on ice/team related issues that had them suspended from their teams. That hasn't happened with Shinkaruk at all. It seems pretty unfair to group him in with those guys at all.

Again I have no problem if they have those concerns that they pass on him but to not want him at all is pretty stupid.

The whole Shinkaruk issue seems to be a much bigger issue here than anywhere else.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by moon

I haven't seen any reports to indicate that Shinkaruk is close to a Kabanov or even Ho Sang/De Angelo level of head case. With those guys there were on ice/team related issues that had them suspended from their teams. That hasn't happened with Shinkaruk at all. It seems pretty unfair to group him in with those guys at all.

Again I have no problem if they have those concerns that they pass on him but to not want him at all is pretty stupid.

The whole Shinkaruk issue seems to be a much bigger issue here than anywhere else.

Probably because he is a local product that was well known heading into the draft. However, I suspect fans of other teams were equally surprised when he kept on dropping yet their team also passed.

Fan bases all over - over-react to the dropping prospect.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Probably because he is a local product that was well known heading into the draft. However, I suspect fans of other teams were equally surprised when he kept on dropping yet their team also passed.

Fan bases all over - over-react to the dropping prospect.

The CP Kabanov outrage is a particularly amusing example of this.

Edit: not to say this was a 'cp outrage' more, 'outrage on cp'.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Back around the loop to the Ritchie conversation..

And by the logic listed above shouldn't we just dismiss draft rankings entirely? Because clearly they have no use. Guys who watch these kids as a career get it wrong all the time, right. I mean it's never really ended up being entirely accurate in the past, so why don't we draft Goldobin at 4th overall? Clearly better than Draisaitl, who I have a feeling will not have a hope at translating his game to the NHL, because, well.. I just have a feeling!

Dear lord.

Try sitting down, reading up and watching video on these kids. Having taken the time to do this, I can fully agree with the scouts that Ritchie is the 6th-7th BPA in this draft. But very unlikely the 4th. You may agree/disagree, that's up to you. But don't just base your opinion on the word of people who're obsessed with the idea of the Flames picking him, or are offended by the some made up stereotype in here that bigger=dumber/less skilled. It's not true.

I knew someone would come back with the classic 'take it to the extreme and then dismiss it' argument.

No one said that scouts are useless or are wasting their time. The argument is that the differences between the 5-10 type guys are marginal. And they are 18 year old kids.

The simple fact of the matter is that is if you made the list 6 months earlier, or 6 months later, it would be different. They are kids. Some are going to develop more than others.

Pick the one you like and move on. But to get butt-hurt over the consensus list, and to consider it a massive mistake to take a guy ranked 7th vs 5th (consensus) is ridiculous.

No matter how much you watch them.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

I haven't seen any reports to indicate that Shinkaruk is close to a Kabanov or even Ho Sang/De Angelo level of head case. With those guys there were on ice/team related issues that had them suspended from their teams. That hasn't happened with Shinkaruk at all. It seems pretty unfair to group him in with those guys at all.

Again I have no problem if they have those concerns that they pass on him but to not want him at all is pretty stupid.

The whole Shinkaruk issue seems to be a much bigger issue here than anywhere else.

Neither you nor I know with certainty how much (if at all even) of a headcase Shinkaruk is, or Ho-Sang. DeAngelo with his suspension points to a more 'sure' headcase, but without knowing the exact details, we as fans can only speculate.

With regards to Kabanov, he may or may not have been a headcase himself. A lot of what had happened to him seemed overblown anyways. There was no guarantees that he was or he wasn't - but judging by the lack of development he went through as compared to his fellow Islanders prospects, I am sure glad the Flames passed on him regardless of the legitimacy of those rumors..

Is Shinkaruk a headcase? Maybe, maybe not. Flames interviewed him and passed on him. Does this mean that they completely crossed him off the list? Maybe, and maybe not. We aren't privy to either of those pieces of information. All we are privy to is the ability to judge the passing over of him with hindsight.

All I am saying is IF Shinkaruk (or any other prospect for that matter) is indeed a headcase, and IF the Flames crossed him (or any other prospect then and in the future) off the list completely after having felt he was a headcase, then that is a good move. I do think that one rotten apple can indeed spoil the bunch - especially when we are talking about young men still trying to find themselves. Flames seem to prefer drafting character guys first and foremost. I don't think that is a bad way to approach the draft.

[moon]

That does a pretty good job of showing why it is ridiculous to wonder why anyone would want him as a prospect.

If all we have is if's and maybe's to go on it is pretty easy to see why people would want him as a prospect and why the comment that started this of "I don't see why anyone would want him as a prospect at all" is ridiculous.

At least with Ho-Sang suspension, De Angelo suspension and Kabanov leaving the team/pyscho dad there was something to point to even if they are pretty weak with Shinkaruk it is all maybe's and if's so pretty clear why many people would be fine with him in the organization.

I think it is way too easy to lable 18 year old kids as bad apples as well so crossing a guy off the list unless it is a pretty bad rap that they have.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by New Era

A lot will be told at the NHL draft combine. I think there are going to be a lot of surprises all around. Looking forward to it just to end some of these arguments.

You mean the league's petting zoo for all the new blood? Yeah, I'd have to agree that there will be some questions answered.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by moon

That does a pretty good job of showing why it is ridiculous to wonder why anyone would want him as a prospect.

If all we have is if's and maybe's to go on it is pretty easy to see why people would want him as a prospect and why the comment that started this of "I don't see why anyone would want him as a prospect at all" is ridiculous.

At least with Ho-Sang suspension, De Angelo suspension and Kabanov leaving the team/pyscho dad there was something to point to even if they are pretty weak with Shinkaruk it is all maybe's and if's so pretty clear why many people would be fine with him in the organization.

I think it is way too easy to lable 18 year old kids as bad apples as well so crossing a guy off the list unless it is a pretty bad rap that they have.

Disagree here. I think that is what interviews are for. I remember in the draft leading up to Baertschi, that he Flames talked to the coach, trainers, teammates, etc. Add to that the fact that he was a 'last minute' change at the draft table. How much more interviewing and information gathering did the Flames do with the guy they were at first intent on drafting?

I think IF (you nor I who don't know the kid simply don't know for sure) the Flames felt that Shinkaruk was a headcase, then yes - great move to completely cross him off the list. Unless we know the prospect and/or family, we simply don't know for sure. However, some posters here did know him and/or his family and commented on it. Some former teammates have commented apparently. There is enough reason to make me think he was a headcase, but I myself don't know for sure as rumors are rumors (even if the Kabanov one).

Flames interview and follow-up with the people around the kid - including their families. Good on them for crossing him off the list even though at the time he seemed like the 'no-brainer' pick, if at the end of their research they did end up determining he had character issues.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Disagree here. I think that is what interviews are for. I remember in the draft leading up to Baertschi, that he Flames talked to the coach, trainers, teammates, etc. Add to that the fact that he was a 'last minute' change at the draft table. How much more interviewing and information gathering did the Flames do with the guy they were at first intent on drafting?

I think IF (you nor I who don't know the kid simply don't know for sure) the Flames felt that Shinkaruk was a headcase, then yes - great move to completely cross him off the list. Unless we know the prospect and/or family, we simply don't know for sure. However, some posters here did know him and/or his family and commented on it. Some former teammates have commented apparently. There is enough reason to make me think he was a headcase, but I myself don't know for sure as rumors are rumors (even if the Kabanov one).

Flames interview and follow-up with the people around the kid - including their families. Good on them for crossing him off the list even though at the time he seemed like the 'no-brainer' pick, if at the end of their research they did end up determining he had character issues.

Sure but Getzlaf was a guy with character issues at the draft and he seemed to overcome them. Kane had character issues as well and he turned out okay.

It can certainly go both ways and my point is that at 18 I think you have to be careful to dismiss kids as sometimes those supposed character issues are things that can easily be fixed with maturity/change of scenery/coaching etc.

Crossing guys off the list seems to me to be a way to miss out on some talented players with issues that can be fixed sometimes very easily.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I knew someone would come back with the classic 'take it to the extreme and then dismiss it' argument.

No one said that scouts are useless or are wasting their time. The argument is that the differences between the 5-10 type guys are marginal. And they are 18 year old kids.

The simple fact of the matter is that is if you made the list 6 months earlier, or 6 months later, it would be different. They are kids. Some are going to develop more than others.

Pick the one you like and move on. But to get butt-hurt over the consensus list, and to consider it a massive mistake to take a guy ranked 7th vs 5th (consensus) is ridiculous.

No matter how much you watch them.

You clearly wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it hit you on the side of the head.

There is a difference when various people around the league and scouting sources (who are free to have their own perspectives) say there is the same clear cut top 5. Ritchie for example (who I think is who you were talking about) is not included in those five. Also we're not drafting 5th, we're drafting 4th.

I think you got it half right. There is always a top tier in every draft class that is identified by draft time. After that tier, it is often a toss up. A player at 15 can pass the player at 8. But that top group or tier of players is often identified and thoroughly followed and studied, and much more often than not, they get that first handful of players right, as either having the highest ceiling, or at least being the most likely to make it at the next level. Sure, there is the odd time they're way off on a top ranked prospect, but nowadays it's rare.

If this top group includes 7 players, then sure you can take #7 at #4, it's not that much of a reach if they're considered more or less on the same level. When that group includes 5 player, unless your scouts are convinced they see something special in a kid, why the hell would you reach beyond the group that's considered by many above the rest?

I'm not too worried, cause I think the Flames scouts will make the right choice and play it safe, but I'm sick of people thinking they're smarter than these scouts, and dismiss the rankings. Sure, the rankings may change as the players develop. But it's very likely that the top handful of players who were identified early on will remain intact, and in a weaker draft year, I really think we shouldn't mess around or take chances, as small as you might perceive the risk to be.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

You clearly wouldn't recognize sarcasm if it hit you on the side of the head.

There is a difference when various people around the league and scouting sources (who are free to have their own perspectives) say there is the same clear cut top 5. Ritchie for example (who I think is who you were talking about) is not included in those five. Also we're not drafting 5th, we're drafting 4th.

I think you got it half right. There is always a top tier in every draft class that is identified by draft time. After that tier, it is often a toss up. A player at 15 can pass the player at 8. But that top group or tier of players is often identified and thoroughly followed and studied, and much more often than not, they get that first handful of players right, as either having the highest ceiling, or at least being the most likely to make it at the next level. Sure, there is the odd time they're way off on a top ranked prospect, but nowadays it's rare.

If this top group includes 7 players, then sure you can take #7 at #4, it's not that much of a reach if they're considered more or less on the same level. When that group includes 5 player, unless your scouts are convinced they see something special in a kid, why the hell would you reach beyond the group that's considered by many above the rest?

I'm not too worried, cause I think the Flames scouts will make the right choice and play it safe, but I'm sick of people thinking they're smarter than these scouts, and dismiss the rankings. Sure, the rankings may change as the players develop. But it's very likely that the top handful of players who were identified early on will remain intact, and in a weaker draft year, I really think we shouldn't mess around or take chances, as small as you might perceive the risk to be.

Agreed, when you draft 4th your pick shouldn't be a 'hail Mary'.