Toronto collapses again, still suck.

[formulate]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

I agree about Jordan Staal. He will be relatively cheap on the trade market right now. They are missing that type of player.

If it weren't for that Clarkson contract (and raises for Phaneuf/Kessel), it would be a great move to package their first round pick with Gardiner to go after J Staal. I've been thinking about him as part of the solution for the Leafs for a while now. He has to be the most attainable/best fit for that roster. As for their defense? No idea how to fix that tire fire.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by formulate

If it weren't for that Clarkson contract (and raises for Phaneuf/Kessel), it would be a great move to package their first round pick with Gardiner to go after J Staal. I've been thinking about him as part of the solution for the Leafs for a while now. He has to be the most attainable/best fit for that roster. As for their defense? No idea how to fix that tire fire.

I dunno, is Staal going to get Carolina that kind of package? His trade value has definitely gone down from where it was 2 years ago.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

I dunno, is Staal going to get Carolina that kind of package? His trade value has definitely gone down from where it was 2 years ago.

That's the start of the package. Need more than Gardiner and 1st heading to Carolina, imo.

[BigTuna]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

That's the start of the package. Need more than Gardiner and 1st heading to Carolina, imo.

No chance. a top 10 pick+Gadriner+? The guy is overpaid, Carolina wants to shed salary.

His value use to be high due to people believing with more ice-time he'd breakout offensively. It has not happened. He's been a big disappointment in Carolina.

[formulate]

No idea of the exact value, but I don't think that's too far off either way (1st plus Gardiner). To me, he's still a 50 point guy who is great in his own zone and stellar in the faceoff circle. His most common linemates this year were Nathan Gerbe and Patrick Dwyer.

[EldrickOnIce]

Canes give up Sutter (11 ov pick), 8th ov pick, and Dumoulin (very good defence prospect) for Staal.
I expect they would need same sort of return.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

That's the start of the package. Need more than Gardiner and 1st heading to Carolina, imo.

Really? For Jordan Staal? A glorified third liner? Most overrated player in the NHL.

[19Yzerman19]

Welp, Moon has ruined this page of the thread.

Phil Kessel is a top 5 scorer in the NHL and is the best thing the Leafs have going for them at the moment and I have zero issue with paying him $8M because he is at worst worth $7M, and 12.5% is not a big overpayment to keep a guy who is basically irreplaceable.

[Erick Estrada]

Kessel is an elite offensive talent but he's a winger and you need an elite center or at least very good quality center depth to win Stanley Cups in the NHL. What's happening in Toronto isn't far off what happened here with Iginla and a bunch of 2/3rd line centers masquerading as 1st line centers. It's just not a good blueprint to build around a winger.

Jordan Staal is a 2/3 center signed to a #1 center deal. He's not good value at his current contract and he's always going to be a disappointment offensively.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Welp, Moon has ruined this page of the thread.

Phil Kessel is a top 5 scorer in the NHL and is the best thing the Leafs have going for them at the moment and I have zero issue with paying him $8M because he is at worst worth $7M, and 12.5% is not a big overpayment to keep a guy who is basically irreplaceable.

is he really the guy you want to go to war with as your best player though? seems to disappear when it counts.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by dino7c

is he really the guy you want to go to war with as your best player though? seems to disappear when it counts.

I have seen nothing to indicate that. Kessel is one of the elite wingers in the game, would take him on the Flames anyday.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by dino7c

is he really the guy you want to go to war with as your best player though?

Given that he's a better player than any forward on about 20 teams in the NHL I'd think the general answer is "yes".

I don't know that I agree that you need an elite center to win the Cup. I'd argue Boston did it in 2011 and came close last year. I'd agree that it is a very helpful thing to have and would probably bring the Leafs closer to contender status - the Ducks' reliance on Getzlaf and Perry hasn't hurt them. But there are plenty of other issues with the Leafs, obviously.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Welp, Moon has ruined this page of the thread.

Phil Kessel is a top 5 scorer in the NHL and is the best thing the Leafs have going for them at the moment and I have zero issue with paying him $8M because he is at worst worth $7M, and 12.5% is not a big overpayment to keep a guy who is basically irreplaceable.

Lol disagree with you so the thread is ruined.

I have seen what a team with Kessel as it's top forward looks like and it is not very impressive.

[19Yzerman19]

No, you said a bunch of absurd and nonsensical things (I have stronger language but in light of moderation standards I'll let you use your imagination), which was so awful in content and so varied that it's not easy to simply say "here's where you're wrong, let's get back to making sense".

I'm prepared to accept that people will disagree with my views on particular hockey players and my priorities in analyzing them and we can discuss that. Your analysis in contrast is complete garbage start to finish. You basically dropped a bull**** bomb. And here's yet another example:

I have seen what a team with Kessel as it's top forward looks like and it is not very impressive.

Take Kessel off of the Leafs and put him on the St. Louis Blues. Now the St. Louis Blues are a team with Kessel as its top forward. Hey look, they're really impressive!

EDIT: See I don't even know how to fully respond to how completely ridiculous this ONE comment is. Now I'm thinking, flashback to 2005-2006! Sidney Crosby scores 102 points as a rookie and the Penguins finish last in the eastern conference 58 points (for reference the Oilers' worst showing was 62 post lockout). Quoth Moon, "I've seen what a team with Crosby as it's top forward looks like and it is not very impressive"?

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I'm prepared to accept that people will disagree with my views on particular hockey players and my priorities in analyzing them and we can discuss that. Your analysis in contrast is complete garbage start to finish. You basically dropped a bull**** bomb. And here's yet another example:

Take Kessel off of the Leafs and put him on the St. Louis Blues. Now the St. Louis Blues are a team with Kessel as its top forward. Hey look, they're really impressive!

I would say Backes would be their top forward. He would be the guy out there in key moments whether down a goal or up a goal, he would be the guy the other players look at for leadership and as the key guy, he would be the guy the Blues would look to build around and not move if things weren't working.

Blues are a perfect example of a team that would work for Kessell because he would be a part not the main guy.

EDIT: See I don't even know how to fully respond to how completely ridiculous this ONE comment is. Now I'm thinking, flashback to 2005-2006! Sidney Crosby scores 102 points as a rookie and the Penguins finish last in the eastern conference 58 points (for reference the Oilers' worst showing was 62 post lockout). Quoth Moon, "I've seen what a team with Crosby as it's top forward looks like and it is not very impressive"?

How about instead of making up BS that I didn't say you look at what was actually said. Phil Kessell has had more than one year of being the top dog on the Leafs team.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by BigTuna

JVR is a tremendous steal @ 4.5 million per through his prime years.

That's a really solid contract. The only downside to this is that JVR really is a chubby boy. He's going to put on excessive weight at some point in his career, and he'll likely turn to crap from that point on.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Kessel is an elite offensive talent but he's a winger and you need an elite centre or at least very good quality center depth to win Stanley Cups in the NHL. What's happening in Toronto isn't far off what happened here with Iginla and a bunch of 2/3rd line centers masquerading as 1st line centers. It's just not a good blueprint to build around a winger.

Jordan Staal is a 2/3 centre signed to a #1 centre deal. He's not good value at his current contract and he's always going to be a disappointment offensively.

Might have worked if Oli had panned out, he was billed as a 1 C but he was a flop. I don't think building out from Iggy and Kipper was a bad idea. If you have a good piece/s you keep them. Same with Toronto.They aren't going to dump Kessel because " he shouldn't be the best on the team." You take what you have and add to it regardless if that piece is a 1 d man , goalie or winger. You have to pay to keep your stars. Not everyone can trade for an elite center or have one fall into their lap so they are forced to build from other positions of strength.

[opendoor]

Funny, you don't see too many people heralding the Leafs as the so-called "advanced stats killer" any more.

[savemedrzaius]

Originally Posted by moon

Lol disagree with you so the thread is ruined.

I have seen what a team with Kessel as it's top forward looks like and it is not very impressive.

This team sucks, but it isn't Kessel's fault. Plus, he actually works hard defensively and always hustles back...uses his speed to break up plays. Not like an Ovechkin who just floats around.

[Dion]

@jonasTSN1050: ICYMI: Two years ago Randy Carlyle prescribed all that was wrong with the Leafs. Little has changed since. http://t.co/TlndJUdZI2
3 hours ago