Vaccines don't cause autism (duh)

[Street Pharmacist]

I don't disagree with a single point, but fighting the good fight won't stem the tide I'm afraid. I'm trying to do it daily, but some people insist on talking a side based on counter culture, not logic

[photon]

Interesting writeup about the most recent rates numbers just released.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ent-goes-wild/

[Hockeymummabear3]

To all those who have mentioned that they have been cautious in their choices to vaccinate, I applaud you. Autism is now affecting 1 in 42 boys (this recent stat is actually 4 years old so it's likely higher). So here we have something that is like something like 27 times more common than polio but the scientists cant figure it out? Give me a break.
The largest, most recent twin study (Hallmeyer et al.) shows that autism isn't "genetic." There obviously are a few syndromes where it is but this only accounts for a small percentage of cases.

Many people don't realize that the "scientific studies" are basically only epidemiological ones and many of them are very poor. What is missing are some real safety studies that are physiological in nature. See 9Questions that Stump Pro-Vaccibe Advocates and their Claims)

Shaw has one on aluminum adjuvant (present in Gardasil and hep b vaccine)
Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants. Are they Safe?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

Burbacher has looked at methylmercury (thimerosal) in infant monkeys and Vaerstraten has analyzed statistics on effects of mercury and actually found mercury to be associated with language delays and tics. The statistics were massaged to show otherwise.

http://www.safeminds.org/research/li...PowerPoint.pdf

Someone recently has found a link to pertussis toxin:
Is Autism a G- alpha protein defect Reversible with Natural Vitamin A?
A study of 60 autistic children suggests that autism may be caused by a G- alpha protein defect, the pertussis toxin found in the DPT vaccine in genetically at risk children.

www.megson.com/readings/MedicalHypothesis.pdf

To those who cite polio eradication as a great victory, there is a very good article on the great rise in NPAFP in India due to Gates use of oral polio vaccine. Children with this had double the risk of death over wild polio virus. See:

nsnbc.me/2013/05/08/bill-gates-polio-vaccine-program-caused-47,500-cases-of-paralysis-death/

The whole subject of vaccination of children has become more nuanced than many people understand. Parents face so many more vaccines than we did, say 20 or 30 years ago. Parents are being ever more forced into choosing 'all or nothing' options. Say a parent does want to get measles or mumps or rubella but isn't comfortable with the lack of safety studies on it, or say they have auto-immune conditions that make them hesitant? Well they no longer have the choice to get these disease coverages done separately- they must have the MMR.
Not only that, now they are actually phasing out this in favor of MMR-V (so they've added a 4th live virus) which has double the instance of febrile seizures (1in 2800 is one estimate).

They have also bundled up dpt as Pediarix (dpt, hib and hep b all in 1) in many places, again removing choice. Many parents may have been interested in dpt but not hep b, especially for such young children where there is little risk for it.

The narcolepsy problem with H1N1 (Pandemrix) is also concerning.

Finally, to people using Ben Goldacre as any kind of reference, well that's a bit of a joke.
Sourcewatch notes that Sense about Science is nothing more than an industry front group.
Goldacre's daddy was involved with the Urabe strain measles scandal in Britain and both are very cosy with GSK.

Bottom line. It's kind of insulting and condescending to dismiss parents' concerns. Especially when choices in terms of vaccines is being taken away all the time. People have a right to wonder what is causing autism. It certainly isn't genetics driving the rates up.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by strombad

Ok, re-evaluate yourself for a moment here and you're going to see quite quickly where you've gone wrong. Use your two degrees and all 3 of your stats classes.

You're defending the right to question vaccinations. That's all well and dandy. But you know what you're also doing? Defending it against people who AREN'T ATTACKING IT. You yourself have claimed to be playing devil's advocate, but the problem here is that NOBODY is saying that it's wrong/stupid to question vaccinations, nobody. What people are saying is that whether you question them or not, all the evidence in the end points to getting your children vaccinated.

It's not about questioning those vaccinations, this "mob mentality" you're speaking down to is about NO vaccinations. It's about parents who REFUSE to vaccinate their children. If those same parents did exactly what you're "defending" and logically questioned vaccinations instead of writing them off, they would see the benefits and see that the large reasons for the anti-vax movement (autism, namely) are not scientifically supported.

Your problem is you. You are defending something nobody is attacking, and wondering why people are attributing what your defending to the actual conversation. Of course people are going to make leaps in judgement, because your current platform either A) isn't logical or B) isn't relevant to the conversation.

Anti-vaccination people aren't analysing the data and studying the benefits/effects of vaccinations. So yes, everyone has the right to question everything. Great, if you're done defending that, can we discuss anti-vaccination people? The cause for this "mob mentality"?

re-evaluate myself on what? Multiple people completely and utterly misinterpreted what I said and made assumptions about my beliefs that were utterly false when I specifically stated they were otherwise. This is a great rhetorical post and all but I'm not going to re-evaluate myself when people are telling me what I belief and what I said when I stated the exact opposite.

This isn't a miscommunication, this is ignoring what I said and telling me what I believe. If you can't see maybe why I'd be mildly perturbed about that then I don't know what to say.

my current platform? I don't have one, I just want to know more and cringe when people assert that anyone who would dare not get vaccinated is a threat to society and are intellectually inferior. Not saying you did that but it's happened on many occasions in here.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

To all those who have mentioned that they have been cautious in their choices to vaccinate, I applaud you. Autism is now affecting 1 in 42 boys (this recent stat is actually 4 years old so it's likely higher). So here we have something that is like something like 27 times more common than polio but the scientists cant figure it out? Give me a break.
The largest, most recent twin study (Hallmeyer et al.) shows that autism isn't "genetic." There obviously are a few syndromes where it is but this only accounts for a small percentage of cases.

Many people don't realize that the "scientific studies" are basically only epidemiological ones and many of them are very poor. What is missing are some real safety studies that are physiological in nature. See 9Questions that Stump Pro-Vaccibe Advocates and their Claims)

Shaw has one on aluminum adjuvant (present in Gardasil and hep b vaccine)
Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants. Are they Safe?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

Burbacher has looked at methylmercury (thimerosal) in infant monkeys and Vaerstraten has analyzed statistics on effects of mercury and actually found mercury to be associated with language delays and tics. The statistics were massaged to show otherwise.

http://www.safeminds.org/research/li...PowerPoint.pdf

Someone recently has found a link to pertussis toxin:
Is Autism a G- alpha protein defect Reversible with Natural Vitamin A?
A study of 60 autistic children suggests that autism may be caused by a G- alpha protein defect, the pertussis toxin found in the DPT vaccine in genetically at risk children.

www.megson.com/readings/MedicalHypothesis.pdf

To those who cite polio eradication as a great victory, there is a very good article on the great rise in NPAFP in India due to Gates use of oral polio vaccine. Children with this had double the risk of death over wild polio virus. See:

nsnbc.me/2013/05/08/bill-gates-polio-vaccine-program-caused-47,500-cases-of-paralysis-death/

The whole subject of vaccination of children has become more nuanced than many people understand. Parents face so many more vaccines than we did, say 20 or 30 years ago. Parents are being ever more forced into choosing 'all or nothing' options. Say a parent does want to get measles or mumps or rubella but isn't comfortable with the lack of safety studies on it, or say they have auto-immune conditions that make them hesitant? Well they no longer have the choice to get these disease coverages done separately- they must have the MMR.
Not only that, now they are actually phasing out this in favor of MMR-V (so they've added a 4th live virus) which has double the instance of febrile seizures (1in 2800 is one estimate).

They have also bundled up dpt as Pediarix (dpt, hib and hep b all in 1) in many places, again removing choice. Many parents may have been interested in dpt but not hep b, especially for such young children where there is little risk for it.

The narcolepsy problem with H1N1 (Pandemrix) is also concerning.

Finally, to people using Ben Goldacre as any kind of reference, well that's a bit of a joke.
Sourcewatch notes that Sense about Science is nothing more than an industry front group.
Goldacre's daddy was involved with the Urabe strain measles scandal in Britain and both are very cosy with GSK.

Bottom line. It's kind of insulting and condescending to dismiss parents' concerns. Especially when choices in terms of vaccines is being taken away all the time. People have a right to wonder what is causing autism. It certainly isn't genetics driving the rates up.

Have you even read any of this thread?

FYI: Your first link is to nothing at all, your second link deals with mercury in vaccines which has already been debated and dealt with (for the love of God if you're that worried about mercury don't eat a fresh food) and your third link is to a poorly written article that is completely all over the place (if you want to present something credible, not saying that the link isn't, how about posting source material that is clear, concise and straight forward).

[Hockeymummabear3]

With 1 in 42 boys with autism, pretty soon we won't have enough kids to scrape together a weak minor hockey league. That should worry people. Unfortunately, the "science" people are more worried about just shutting down genuine conversation and mire nuanced questions on the issue. It isn't so black and white as some try to make it.

[Boo Radley]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

With 1 in 42 boys with autism, pretty soon we won't have enough kids to scrape together a weak minor hockey league. That should worry people. Unfortunately, the "science" people are more worried about just shutting down genuine conversation and mire nuanced questions on the issue. It isn't so black and white as some try to make it.

What do you mean by "science" people?

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

With 1 in 42 boys with autism, pretty soon we won't have enough kids to scrape together a weak minor hockey league. That should worry people. Unfortunately, the "science" people are more worried about just shutting down genuine conversation and mire nuanced questions on the issue. It isn't so black and white as some try to make it.

Who are you talking about?! Have you read this thread?

[calf]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

With 1 in 42 boys with autism, pretty soon we won't have enough kids to scrape together a weak minor hockey league. That should worry people. Unfortunately, the "science" people are more worried about just shutting down genuine conversation and mire nuanced questions on the issue. It isn't so black and white as some try to make it.

So you're saying it's not black & white, but pretty soon enough kids are going to have autism/other ailments due to vaccines, that we can field leagues anymore? That's not how stats and trends work.

[troutman]

I'm starting to think vaccinations should be mandatory, like seat belts.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

With 1 in 42 boys with autism, pretty soon we won't have enough kids to scrape together a weak minor hockey league. That should worry people. Unfortunately, the "science" people are more worried about just shutting down genuine conversation and mire nuanced questions on the issue. It isn't so black and white as some try to make it.

Oh those crazy "science people" and their scientific method. Science isn't an opinion held by a group of people, or an agenda against your world view. It is challenged and scrutinized. It welcomes it, and learns from it.

The genuine conversation can only happen when it isn't clouded with bad sources, pseudoscience, misinformation, and conspiracy theories.

[Bill Bumface]

Before HPV vaccines were available In Canada ~2300 people a year got cancer attributed to HPV.

They are about 70% effective at preventing these types of cancers. If everyone was vaccinated, there would be 1600 less people with cancer every year.

But god forbid your teenage daughter gets acne at the same age she got the HPV vaccine.

Vaccines cause Acne.

Big Pharma.

Don't do it.

[Ducay]

Typical "science" person. Pushing big pharma's agenda. Keep towing the line, science man, enjoy your autism/HPV/Cancer/9-11 truth is out there.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by troutman

I'm starting to think vaccinations should be mandatory, like seat belts.

I'm starting to think that an introductory class on critical thinking and logical fallacies should be mandatory for obtaining a high school diploma.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

With 1 in 42 boys with autism, pretty soon we won't have enough kids to scrape together a weak minor hockey league. That should worry people. Unfortunately, the "science" people are more worried about just shutting down genuine conversation and mire nuanced questions on the issue. It isn't so black and white as some try to make it.

Wait wait wait...
The ignorance of the rest of your post aside... you know that people with autism can function right? Like, a good number of them could likely play hockey if they chose?

Maybe you should actually research... I dunno... anything?

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

To all those who have mentioned that they have been cautious in their choices to vaccinate, I applaud you. Autism is now affecting 1 in 42 boys (this recent stat is actually 4 years old so it's likely higher). So here we have something that is like something like 27 times more common than polio but the scientists cant figure it out? Give me a break.
The largest, most recent twin study (Hallmeyer et al.) shows that autism isn't "genetic." There obviously are a few syndromes where it is but this only accounts for a small percentage of cases.

Many people don't realize that the "scientific studies" are basically only epidemiological ones and many of them are very poor. What is missing are some real safety studies that are physiological in nature. See 9Questions that Stump Pro-Vaccibe Advocates and their Claims)

Shaw has one on aluminum adjuvant (present in Gardasil and hep b vaccine)
Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants. Are they Safe?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

Burbacher has looked at methylmercury (thimerosal) in infant monkeys and Vaerstraten has analyzed statistics on effects of mercury and actually found mercury to be associated with language delays and tics. The statistics were massaged to show otherwise.

http://www.safeminds.org/research/li...PowerPoint.pdf

Someone recently has found a link to pertussis toxin:
Is Autism a G- alpha protein defect Reversible with Natural Vitamin A?
A study of 60 autistic children suggests that autism may be caused by a G- alpha protein defect, the pertussis toxin found in the DPT vaccine in genetically at risk children.

www.megson.com/readings/MedicalHypothesis.pdf

To those who cite polio eradication as a great victory, there is a very good article on the great rise in NPAFP in India due to Gates use of oral polio vaccine. Children with this had double the risk of death over wild polio virus. See:

nsnbc.me/2013/05/08/bill-gates-polio-vaccine-program-caused-47,500-cases-of-paralysis-death/

The whole subject of vaccination of children has become more nuanced than many people understand. Parents face so many more vaccines than we did, say 20 or 30 years ago. Parents are being ever more forced into choosing 'all or nothing' options. Say a parent does want to get measles or mumps or rubella but isn't comfortable with the lack of safety studies on it, or say they have auto-immune conditions that make them hesitant? Well they no longer have the choice to get these disease coverages done separately- they must have the MMR.
Not only that, now they are actually phasing out this in favor of MMR-V (so they've added a 4th live virus) which has double the instance of febrile seizures (1in 2800 is one estimate).

They have also bundled up dpt as Pediarix (dpt, hib and hep b all in 1) in many places, again removing choice. Many parents may have been interested in dpt but not hep b, especially for such young children where there is little risk for it.

The narcolepsy problem with H1N1 (Pandemrix) is also concerning.

Finally, to people using Ben Goldacre as any kind of reference, well that's a bit of a joke.
Sourcewatch notes that Sense about Science is nothing more than an industry front group.
Goldacre's daddy was involved with the Urabe strain measles scandal in Britain and both are very cosy with GSK.

Bottom line. It's kind of insulting and condescending to dismiss parents' concerns. Especially when choices in terms of vaccines is being taken away all the time. People have a right to wonder what is causing autism. It certainly isn't genetics driving the rates up.

Are you that woman that was on the news a few days ago, yammering nutbar nonsense about vaccinations?

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm starting to think that an introductory class on critical thinking and logical fallacies should be mandatory for obtaining a high school diploma.

I'm not even sure if that would work. We (quite rightly) teach people to question authority, so I can easily imagine the weak-minded idiots who make up the anti-vaccination movement (similar to other lunatics like 9/11 truthers or what have you) will just dismiss the peer-reviewed evidence of medical scientists as part of an elaborate conspiracy perpetrated by Big Pharma and the Medical-Industrial Complex.

Anti-vaxxers are one of many unfortunate results of the growing trend of anti-intellectualism in Western society. It used to be that most people would defer to the superior knowledge and wisdom of trained and experienced experts in a given field. If this was still the case, everyone would recognize that medical scientists, doctors, and immunologists are trusted authority figures on the topic of vaccination and would vaccinate their children accordingly. Because of anti-intellectualism, however, too many people now give equal weight to the uneducated opinions of quacks and Hollywood stars.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I'm starting to think that an introductory class on critical thinking and logical fallacies should be mandatory for obtaining a high school diploma.

I am starting to think we should just put anti-vacciners on an ice floe....

[Flamesoholic]

I'm starting to think we need to put child locks on the frigging internet for these people. This level of ignorance and arrogance that they know better than decades of study by the "science people" is incredible.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Hockeymummabear3

To all those who have mentioned that they have been cautious in their choices to vaccinate, I applaud you. Autism is now affecting 1 in 42 boys (this recent stat is actually 4 years old so it's likely higher). So here we have something that is like something like 27 times more common than polio but the scientists cant figure it out? Give me a break.
The largest, most recent twin study (Hallmeyer et al.) shows that autism isn't "genetic." There obviously are a few syndromes where it is but this only accounts for a small percentage of cases.

Many people don't realize that the "scientific studies" are basically only epidemiological ones and many of them are very poor. What is missing are some real safety studies that are physiological in nature. See 9Questions that Stump Pro-Vaccibe Advocates and their Claims)

Shaw has one on aluminum adjuvant (present in Gardasil and hep b vaccine)
Aluminum Vaccine Adjuvants. Are they Safe?
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

Burbacher has looked at methylmercury (thimerosal) in infant monkeys and Vaerstraten has analyzed statistics on effects of mercury and actually found mercury to be associated with language delays and tics. The statistics were massaged to show otherwise.

http://www.safeminds.org/research/li...PowerPoint.pdf

Someone recently has found a link to pertussis toxin:
Is Autism a G- alpha protein defect Reversible with Natural Vitamin A?
A study of 60 autistic children suggests that autism may be caused by a G- alpha protein defect, the pertussis toxin found in the DPT vaccine in genetically at risk children.

www.megson.com/readings/MedicalHypothesis.pdf

To those who cite polio eradication as a great victory, there is a very good article on the great rise in NPAFP in India due to Gates use of oral polio vaccine. Children with this had double the risk of death over wild polio virus. See:

nsnbc.me/2013/05/08/bill-gates-polio-vaccine-program-caused-47,500-cases-of-paralysis-death/

The whole subject of vaccination of children has become more nuanced than many people understand. Parents face so many more vaccines than we did, say 20 or 30 years ago. Parents are being ever more forced into choosing 'all or nothing' options. Say a parent does want to get measles or mumps or rubella but isn't comfortable with the lack of safety studies on it, or say they have auto-immune conditions that make them hesitant? Well they no longer have the choice to get these disease coverages done separately- they must have the MMR.
Not only that, now they are actually phasing out this in favor of MMR-V (so they've added a 4th live virus) which has double the instance of febrile seizures (1in 2800 is one estimate).

They have also bundled up dpt as Pediarix (dpt, hib and hep b all in 1) in many places, again removing choice. Many parents may have been interested in dpt but not hep b, especially for such young children where there is little risk for it.

The narcolepsy problem with H1N1 (Pandemrix) is also concerning.

Finally, to people using Ben Goldacre as any kind of reference, well that's a bit of a joke.
Sourcewatch notes that Sense about Science is nothing more than an industry front group.
Goldacre's daddy was involved with the Urabe strain measles scandal in Britain and both are very cosy with GSK.

Bottom line. It's kind of insulting and condescending to dismiss parents' concerns. Especially when choices in terms of vaccines is being taken away all the time. People have a right to wonder what is causing autism. It certainly isn't genetics driving the rates up.

http://jennymccarthybodycount.com/An...ount/Home.html