Fair Elections Act

[Zulu29]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...al-government/

I watched Mr. Polievre's interview with Evan Soloman on Power and Politics the other day. It was amazing how he would not back down from his position on the voter vouching even after the author of the report he was referencing said he was picking and choosing quotes and using them out of context.

The Charter of rights enshrines voter rights however there is also a need to ensure no abuses. I don't understand the need for this new legislation as it seems the old legislation was working just fine.

[Tinordi]

:Some people on this board ought to read this passage and take a long look in the mirror.

And so we face the likelihood, as incredible as it sounds, of the government using the majority it won in the last election to pass a bill widely perceived as intended to fix the next — and contesting that election in the shadow of illegitimacy the bill would cast. It will do so, what is more, not in spite of the opposition it has aroused, but because of it: because it has convinced itself that all such opposition, from whatever source, proceeds from the same implacably partisan motives as its own.

This is how you get to 28% in the polls: when every criticism is only further proof that you’re right. It’s one thing to fleece the rubes in the grassroots with this nonsense —They’re all out to get us! Please send money!#— but when you start to believe your own rhetoric, your brains turn to mush. It makes you incapable of acknowledging error, or even the possibility of it. And so it blinds you to the train wreck to which you are headed.

On the other hand, can it get any worse for the Tories? They are already down to the hardest of the hard core: the people whose faith has remained unbroken, through every blunder, broken promise and scandal. Would even the perception that they were trying to fix the election shake this support loose? Could anything?

[Jacks]

The bill has some good parts and some bad parts but I fail to see how requiring identification is "fixing" the election. Do Liberal and NDP voters have a hard time getting ID?

I've been asked for ID when voting for as long as I can remember, not a big deal to bring it when going to the polls.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Jacks

The bill has some good parts and some bad parts but I fail to see how requiring identification is "fixing" the election. Do Liberal and NDP voters have a hard time getting ID?

I've been asked for ID when voting for as long as I can remember, not a big deal to bring it when going to the polls.

The issue here is that lower income people are more likely to not have a drivers license or passport.

Lower income people are more likely to vote Liberal or NDP and less likely to vote Conservative.

So if I can't vouch for you, and you don't have the proper ID, then you can't vote.

The issue is the unintended consequences.

Frankly I think it has more to do with being a progressive, open and inclusive democracy than it does swaying an election.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Jacks

The bill has some good parts and some bad parts but I fail to see how requiring identification is "fixing" the election. Do Liberal and NDP voters have a hard time getting ID?

I've been asked for ID when voting for as long as I can remember, not a big deal to bring it when going to the polls.

I have zero problem with the asking for ID. I actually haven't been asked for ID a few times and couldn't believe it. What if I had voted in the advance poll and showed up on election day?

This strikes me as a sort of omnibus bill though. A couple good things mixed in with a bunch of garbage. So whole some is common sense and should be voted for, there are other just plain ridiculous points that should be voted against. I hate that kind of politics.

[Zulu29]

The problem with the new bill is that it's not needed. Past and present electoral officers have said there is no evidence to suggest voter fraud is happening. Nothing was wrong with the vouching system or voter cards. More worrisome is the possible disenfranchisement of 500,000 Canadians.

[Brannigans Law]

I think the big deal is experts are all unified in saying this legislation is unnecessary and will lower turn out. So .. there's that.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

The issue here is that lower income people are more likely to not have a drivers license or passport.

Lower income people are more likely to vote Liberal or NDP and less likely to vote Conservative.

So if I can't vouch for you, and you don't have the proper ID, then you can't vote.

My understanding is that there are 39 acceptable forms of ID. Including student cards, utility bills or a letter from a soup kitchen.

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Frankly I think it has more to do with being a progressive, open and inclusive democracy than it does swaying an election.

I was responding to Tinordi who was saying they are trying to steal an election.

Originally Posted by Slava

This strikes me as a sort of omnibus bill though. A couple good things mixed in with a bunch of garbage. So whole some is common sense and should be voted for, there are other just plain ridiculous points that should be voted against. I hate that kind of politics.

I don't support everything in the bill either so once again we find ourselves agreeing on something.

Originally Posted by Zulu29

More worrisome is the possible disenfranchisement of 500,000 Canadians.

500,000?

[evman150]

Voter fraud - that favourite old canard of the racist wing of the Republican party, now showing up in Canada to make sure those pesky First Nations and poor people don't vote!

Jim Crow is alive and well in the House of Commons!

It's celebration time in Alberta! Four more years! Four more years!

[Jacks]

^^
This is why we can't have nice things. Conversation over.

[Resolute 14]

Well, it is politics where inflammatory rhetoric usually carries the day over informed reason. Can't fault evman150 for aiming low even as he criticizes his political opponents for also aiming low.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Jacks

My understanding is that there are 39 acceptable forms of ID. Including student cards, utility bills or a letter from a soup kitchen.


I was responding to Tinordi who was saying they are trying to steal an election.


I don't support everything in the bill either so once again we find ourselves agreeing on something.


500,000?

But there's the rub, there aren't 39 pieces that are acceptable. It must have your address on it and what other than a drivers licence or utility bills have that?

[GGG]

The voter id requirments is my biggest problem with the new bill.

There are two things we know:

1) voter fraud is not an issue. Look for cases where the vouching system is abused.

2) increasing ID requirments will disenfranchise some voters.

Since number 2 is true, regardless of reason, we shouldnt disenfranchise people without a compelling reason. The spector of voter fraud is not a compelling reason to cause 100k people not to vote.

And remember if a person is trying to rig a close election by bussing 500 voters to different poles, making up fake names and addresses, having another person memorize these fake details and vouch for those people, and then having no one leak that this occurred they are probably willing to go one step further and fake some utility bills.

More votes are miscounted then there is voter fraud.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Well, it is politics where inflammatory rhetoric usually carries the day over informed reason. Can't fault evman150 for aiming low even as he criticizes his political opponents for also aiming low.

I'm aiming low in an online forum. The Tories are aiming low on a stage that's just a tad bigger.

Same thing though right?

[Tinordi]

It's not just that. It's misrepresenting the reports on electoral issues, it's actually making it harder for elections Canada to investigate robo calls, it's not involving all parties in redoing elections legislation, it's consulting with experts after the fact, it's basically a partisan farce operating at some of the core architecture of this democracy.

No big deal though right because Trudeau something something.

[mustache ride]

Are there examples of other government programs that the average person can access without ID?

Is there a ballpark number of people that don't carry any forms of ID?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Are there examples of other government programs that the average person can access without ID?

Is there a ballpark number of people that don't carry any forms of ID?

The right to vote is enshrined in the Charter, government programs aren't.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

From Elections Canada: http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx...t=index&lang=e

Currently there are three ways you prove identity to vote:

Option 1: Show one original piece of identification with your photo, name and address. It must be issued by a government agency.

Examples:

Driver's Licence

Ontario Health Card
Note: Not all electors in Ontario will have cards with photo, name and address

Provincial/Territorial Identification Card for the provinces/territories of

Newfoundland and Labrador
Prince Edward Island
Nova Scotia
New Brunswick
Ontario
Manitoba
Alberta
British Columbia
Northwest Territories
Nunavut

Option 2: Show two original pieces of authorized identification. Both pieces must have your name and one must also have your address.

Examples:

Identity Cards

Driver's Licence
Health Card
Canadian Passport
Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (Citizenship Card)
Birth Certificate
Certificate of Indian Status (Status Card)
Social Insurance Number Card
Old Age Security Card
Student ID Card
Provincial/Territorial Identification Card
Liquor Identification Card
Hospital/Medical Clinic Card
Credit/Debit Card
Employee Card
Public Transportation Card
Library Card
Canadian Forces Identity Card
Veterans Affairs Canada Health Card
Canadian Blood Services/Héma-Québec Card
CNIB ID Card
Firearm Possession and Acquisition Licence or Possession Only Licence
Fishing, Trapping or Hunting Licence
Outdoors or Wildlife Card/Licence
Hospital bracelet worn by residents of long-term care facilities
Parolee Identification Card

Original documents
(with name and address)

Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water)
Bank/Credit Card Statement
Vehicle Ownership/Insurance
Correspondence issued by a school, college or university
Statement of Government Benefits (employment insurance, old age security, social assistance, disability support or child tax benefit)
Attestation of Residence issued by the responsible authority of a First Nations band or reserve
Government Cheque or Cheque Stub
Pension Plan Statement of Benefits, Contributions or Participation
Residential Lease/Mortgage Statement
Income/Property Tax Assessment Notice
Insurance Policy
Letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
One of the following, issued by the responsible authority of a shelter, soup kitchen, student/senior residence, or long-term care facility: Attestation of Residence, Letter of Stay, Admission Form or Statement of Benefits

Option 3: Take an oath and have an elector who knows you vouch for you (both of you will be required to make a sworn statement). This person must have authorized identification and their name must appear on the list of electors in the same polling division as you. This person can only vouch for one person and the person who is vouched for cannot vouch for another elector.

Examples: a neighbour, your roommate.


The issue is people with low incomes are less likely to be able to fulfill option 1.

Option 2 is a huge hassle, what if they rent from a friend or relative (perhaps rent a room)? There's no formal lease, utilities are included, then the options shrink awfully fast.

Option 3 allows for an oath to be given and let's them exercise their right as a Canadian citizen to vote.

If the right is to be taken away the onus is on the government to prove you are not eligible to vote, not on you to prove you can.

If Option 2 remains unchanged it still doesn't solve the non-existent problem that the act is supposed to fix as I could fill out a lease and claim you rent from me. Voila.

[mustache ride]

What happens currently when you show up without ID? I think they have always asked me for my DL. So if just show up with nothing I'm still good to go?

[edslunch]

So if one person can only vouch for one person then you need 500 people willing to fraudulently vouch for the 500 bus people??? This is a bogus issue. Let's call it what it is - voter suppression