Chris Butler Discussion: Sign, or Walk?

[Clever_Iggy]

Looking at UFA defensemen this year, the pickings are pretty slim: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?...D&fa_type_id=2

I think signing him for 3 years (ideal would be 2-years, but I think he could get at least 3 elsewhere) might be the best option to (a) avoid overpaying for someone older and/or worse and (b) avoid rushing the likes of Wotherspoon et al.

A year ago if someone would have told me that the Flames have extended Stajan and should extend Butler, I would have laughed hysterically. Both have had good years and are needed to bridge during the rebuild.

[Wolfman]

I'm basing my decision on his body of work, not his last 20 or so games. He will sign a new 2 year deal and he will revert back to his old self and hurt the team more than he will help them. He may be an asset but how many other teams would have Butler on their backend?

[ForeverFlameFan]

I think that many teams wouldn't mind taking him in a 5/6 position as well. And honestly, I think he'd play pretty well on a good team, like Boston, who struggled with defensmen injuries. Or a team can be overpaying for him (don't see that happening), but it would be hilarious to see Edmonton overpay him and call this a "bold move".

If no team wants him, I wouldn't be surprised if we offered a 2 year, 2m per. I don't think he's been bad enough where we shouldn't consider having him for another year or two.

[wretched34]

going into next year:
Gio-Brodie
Russell-Wideman
Smid-Wotherspoon

Burke Wants to get bigger and meaner, harder to play against.
Butler blocks shots, but he doesn't hit, and he isn't hard to play against.
There's not a UFA on the market that will end up on our top pair.
So you're looking to upgrade a 3-6 D-man, Niskanen or Orpik (doubt he hits UFA) would be prime targets. They put up points, eat minutes, and actually hit the opposition. Both would be great as a 3/4 if Burke can Move Wideman, Niskanen is a RH shot.
For a 5/6 guy, I'd be looking at Nikitin, Greene or Stoner. Big bodies, with far more upside than Butler. Greene is a RH shot.
Other UFA's that could be worth a look, Meszaros, Stralman, Fayne (doubt he hits UFA), Diaz

[Wolfman]

Originally Posted by wretched34

going into next year:
Gio-Brodie
Russell-Wideman
Smid-Wotherspoon

Burke Wants to get bigger and meaner, harder to play against.
Butler blocks shots, but he doesn't hit, and he isn't hard to play against.
There's not a UFA on the market that will end up on our top pair.
So you're looking to upgrade a 3-6 D-man, Niskanen or Orpik (doubt he hits UFA) would be prime targets. They put up points, eat minutes, and actually hit the opposition. Both would be great as a 3/4 if Burke can Move Wideman, Niskanen is a RH shot.
For a 5/6 guy, I'd be looking at Nikitin, Greene or Stoner. Big bodies, with far more upside than Butler. Greene is a RH shot.
Other UFA's that could be worth a look, Meszaros, Stralman, Fayne (doubt he hits UFA), Diaz

I agree fully with this, it is way to easy to gain the zone against the Flames. Flames D are too soft, gone are the days of Regehr and Phanuef when you feared carrying the puck across the blueline. Flames need to address that this offseason definitely. Orpik, Greene would be great in the top 4.

[ForeverFlameFan]

^ I agree that I would take a Greene, Meszaros, Stoner, any big body over Butler.

Something just tells me that we are giving up on this guy too soon, he's only 27.

[kermitology]

Throw big money at Niskanen. Dump Wideman if you have to, or not, but if Niskanen wants to get paid, we can afford to throw a LOT of money at him if he wants, and he's entering his prime.

At best, Butler turns into a serviceable 5th defenceman, don't expect much more from him.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

^ I agree that I would take a Greene, Meszaros, Stoner, any big body over Butler.

Something just tells me that we are giving up on this guy too soon, he's only 27.

Although true that most defensemen take longer to develop, and hit their prime later than forwards, you still know what their potential is.
Look at Brodie, 23, and playing top pairing minutes. Is he a top pairing defenseman? On the Flames, sure, on 90% of other teams, no, not right now. But he has the potential to be as he continues to develop.
Butler's potential is a 5/6 guy, will he get better in that role, maybe, he's improved in some aspects this year. He blocks more shots than he used to, but that doesn't make him a 3/4 guys.
In a 5/6 role, unless it's one of your drafted kids earning his spot, and working his way up the depth chart, I'd rather take a better proven 5/6 guy, then hope the one you have can get better.

[burn_this_city]

He's improved enough in my opinion to warrant another couple of years.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I wanted to vote for "Explore other options, but re-sign him if nothing better is available" or something similar to that.

I just think he is a serviceable bottom-pairing defender. Good shot-blocker, but that is about it when it comes to his 'strengths'. Fairly vanilla game to him, which right now is a good option for the bottom pairing. I would just hope the Flames explore other options first before re-signing him.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Although true that most defensemen take longer to develop, and hit their prime later than forwards, you still know what their potential is.
Look at Brodie, 23, and playing top pairing minutes. Is he a top pairing defenseman? On the Flames, sure, on 90% of other teams, no, not right now. But he has the potential to be as he continues to develop.
Butler's potential is a 5/6 guy, will he get better in that role, maybe, he's improved in some aspects this year. He blocks more shots than he used to, but that doesn't make him a 3/4 guys.
In a 5/6 role, unless it's one of your drafted kids earning his spot, and working his way up the depth chart, I'd rather take a better proven 5/6 guy, then hope the one you have can get better.

A "better proven" 5–6 defenseman? They are in the bottom pairing for a good reason, and I expect that there are likely not to be any better options through free agency to fill the same role.

Re-signing Butler is the right decision. He is serviceable, he knows the team, and is on board with the current direction. He is popular in the room, and is a viable option as a short-term emergency fill in for injuries. The Flames will re-sign him, and he will play next year. If Wotherspoon or Sieloff or Ramage takes huge strides, then he will likely be relegated to #7, and eventually traded by the deadline. It is silly to just let him walk.

[wretched34]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

A "better proven" 5–6 defenseman? They are in the bottom pairing for a good reason, and I expect that there are likely not to be any better options through free agency to fill the same role.

Re-signing Butler is the right decision. He is serviceable, he knows the team, and is on board with the current direction. He is popular in the room, and is a viable option as a short-term emergency fill in for injuries. The Flames will re-sign him, and he will play next year. If Wotherspoon or Sieloff or Ramage takes huge strides, then he will likely be relegated to #7, and eventually traded by the deadline. It is silly to just let him walk.

Yes, they are in the bottom pairing for a good reason, because they aren't good enough to be a top 4 guy, and I would have to say there are a lot better options for a 5/6 guy than Butler, when it come to the role Burke wants filled.
Butler does not offer a physical game, which is what Burke wants.
If your top 4 D are going to be your offensive minded guys, and your solid 2 way guys, your bottom pair better be stay at home physical guys, like Smid.
I'd take a guy like Stoner over Butler in that 5/6 role anyday of the week, at least opponents will pay attention when Stoner is on the ice.

As for the second bolded point, with that logic, re-sign everyone. They know the team, and they know the direction.... Don't bring in any UFA's, because they may not have friends here, and god forbid they'd have to listen to the coach. This is a rebuild after all, keep things the same!

[Poe969]

ya, the whole keep him here because we're used to him logic is a little too far out there. I swear some people just like this team because who's on it and they're used to it. They don't want to change anyone because even though we're a bottom 5 team in the league, most guys have had a good stretch here or there or they're good guys.

If you want to make this team better, we need to get better players. Plain and simple.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Yes, they are in the bottom pairing for a good reason, because they aren't good enough to be a top 4 guy, and I would have to say there are a lot better options for a 5/6 guy than Butler, when it come to the role Burke wants filled.
Butler does not offer a physical game, which is what Burke wants.
If your top 4 D are going to be your offensive minded guys, and your solid 2 way guys, your bottom pair better be stay at home physical guys, like Smid.
I'd take a guy like Stoner over Butler in that 5/6 role anyday of the week, at least opponents will pay attention when Stoner is on the ice.

I'm not at all convinced that Stoner would provide any perceivable upgrade. Especially considering how much time Butler spends on the penalty kill, I tend to expect that he would likely not be an inadequate replacement.

Originally Posted by wretched34

As for the second bolded point, with that logic, re-sign everyone. They know the team, and they know the direction.... Don't bring in any UFA's, because they may not have friends here, and god forbid they'd have to listen to the coach. This is a rebuild after all, keep things the same!

That is not at all what I meant and you know it. The fact of the matter is that Calgary will be a hard sell to virtually every free agent. Any offers coming from the Flames would need to be excessive to get much attention. My point is that there is not a significant upgrade to be had for the same cost, and who fills the same role.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Poe969

ya, the whole keep him here because we're used to him logic is a little too far out there. I swear some people just like this team because who's on it and they're used to it. They don't want to change anyone because even though we're a bottom 5 team in the league, most guys have had a good stretch here or there or they're good guys.

If you want to make this team better, we need to get better players. Plain and simple.

What available players would be an upgrade over Butler? And of those players, who would sign with Calgary? I'm betting that list is very, very short.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Um, you do realize that our team has been playing better as of late, with Butler in the lineup as well. It's not like we have been sitting him on the bench as we started to win. He's been playing his butt off like the rest as well. He knows our system and got better this year than the previous year. I don't see why you wouldn't resign him for another 1, 2 years.

It's not like we want to keep him for 5 years down the road, he is a short-term deal.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by codynw

What available players would be an upgrade over Butler? And of those players, who would sign with Calgary? I'm betting that list is very, very short.

So there's a very very short list of players that are an upgrade on Butler who will be available this summer...but you're saying there are better options? Even if there is one player that will fit in better than he does, the team should look at going after that player and consider Butler as a back up spot. He's a 5-7 defensman on just about any team if he even makes some teams, the team should be looking to upgrade in each and every position not just hoping that they somehow get better over time.

If the team wants to get better, they should go after better players and if they can't get anyone else then sign Butler after they've tried to improve. I'm not 100% dead set on not having Butler but I don't think they should sign him until they at least try to improve first.

[Matty81]

I think they should chase one of the big name college free agents and jettison butters, he won't be here when the team contends and I think those 5th, 6th and 7th dmen slots should be used to start educating younger players who will.

With how bad he's played as a flame excepting the last couple months, I'm surprised how short peoples memories are.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is not at all what I meant and you know it. The fact of the matter is that Calgary will be a hard sell to virtually every free agent. Any offers coming from the Flames would need to be excessive to get much attention. My point is that there is not a significant upgrade to be had for the same cost, and who fills the same role.

Agreed here but I wouldn't given him 3 years. Perfer 1 year, 2 max. It always seemed silly to me to give a bottom pairing defenseman more than 2 years, it rarely turns out well.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I think they should chase one of the big name college free agents and jettison butters, he won't be here when the team contends and I think those 5th, 6th and 7th dmen slots should be used to start educating younger players who will.

With how bad he's played as a flame excepting the last couple months, I'm surprised how short peoples memories are.

You just admitted that he has been playing good for the last couple of months. Had he been playing really well first off and then playing horrible the last couple of months, I am pretty sure this poll would have all voted Butler off the team.

Now that he is playing good and has sheltered minutes on the 5/6 line, I don't see why you don't sign him for one of two more years at a reasonable price.