So whats happening with Sven these days?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm not sure how I'd do that, but really, what does "some people" even mean?

Some people in the organization? Some people at the concession stand? Some people on a message forum? Some people you were sitting next to in the crowd? Some other reporters?

There's no legitimacy to that and I'm actually surprised Duhatschek would do that.

Unfortunately that has become a common journalistic practice and used when people that would normally go on record with a quote want to hide behind anonymity and give a comment off the record. It is sad that it has come to this, but in the information age when getting a story to press in a timely manner is a primary driver for reporters their ability to get two sources on record has given way to the un-named source/sources, more commonly referred to as "some people." When a quality guy like Duhatschek resorts to the practice that should tell you how bad things are.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I'm not saying he's telling his coach to shove it but if entitlement is a bad attitude than IMO he's been guilty.

Other prospects have passed him and he needs to earn his spot. Feaster no longer is able to protect him.

I think the best thing for Sven is have the spot light off him, give him time to develop and let the hype settle down. Give him another full season in the AHL and I think we're going to have a real player on our hands here.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

You're asking me to prove a negative?

No, I'm asking you to prove your claim. If you are so certain what you believe it factual you should have no problem proving your claim.

The onus is on the person making the claim, the burden of proof is on you. You can't just turn it around and make it an appeal to ignorance. I think you've gone full loony here. That's not the way it works, on Calgarypuck or in life.

Yes, it is. You stand up and try that crap in the classroom or the boardroom you'll get your head handed to you. You are countering someone's claim with one of your own. You are expected to back up that claim. If someone stands up and claims "the founding fathers were Christians" and you claim otherwise, the onus is equally on you to prove otherwise. If someone claims that investing in said portfolio is a wise decision, and you claim otherwise, the onus is then on you to prove why it is a bad investment decision. You have made a claim about Baertschi's attitude, to which there is evidence to support the claim - through cryptic comments from management followed by benchings, a demotion, and passovers in the minors for call ups - so the onus is on you to either prove your position correct or that of the other individual incorrect. Basic rules of rhetorical engagement.

Also..

No, it isn't. It's asking the person who said something to back it up with evidence.

So, back it up. If your position is solid there must be all sorts of stories or quotes from different members in the Flames organization that Baertschi displayed a professional attitude during the time frame in question.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by New Era

The entire management team - Feaster Weisbrod, Burke and Conroy - took turns saying how disappointed they were with Baertschi. It started in the development camp, where Baertschi was outperformed by a number of players. The feeling was he didn't think he needed to be there. This spilled over into the rookie camp, where, again, Baertschi was a step behind many players. Again, the comments were that Baertschi looked disinterested and it was mentioned he believed he thought he didn't need to be there because he wasn't a rookie. That is without mentioning the coaching staff and comments made about the 200 foot game. The comments are out there in the public record.

Baertschi has quickly become the Calgary version of one of the Oilers Fab Five, where certain fans are so in love with his offensive potential they are incapable of seeing the writing on wall or the challenges he is failing to face. Even when the team goes to extremes of mentioning publicly their displeasure with his erformance or attitude - showing up to two different camps with belief you don't need to be there is an attitude issue - or benching the player or even dispatching the player to the minors. The team is still not happy with his performance in the minors, or growth as a player, as recently mentioned by the team president. I'm not certain how this is even up for debate. I guess the only ones who see the obvious problems with the player are just a bunch of sheep.

We all see the obvious problems with the player, but some posters are making up a fantasy story out if thin air about the cause of his problems. You keep propagating this story about a 'kid who just doesn't want to put in the work', and then all the little sheepies believe that BS and it becomes this overblown myth about the player. The 'attitude' aspect to your argument is pure conjecture. Yes, he's struggled to play a complete game, but it is beyond idiotic to think that Sven doesn't want to play the game that's expected of him. Feaster & Burke criticised Sven's game, but never his attitude.

I've scoured this board and 'the public record' & the only thing even resembling an official quote re: Sven not wanting to be at either of the camps' mentioned comes from Rob Kerr via HFboards. Kerr on air said something along the lines of 'Well, if you were 20 years old and on the verge of becoming an NHL regular you probably wouldn't give your all until the main camp either.'

Here are some actual quotes from this summer though it's not as interesting as making up soap opera storylines:

Conroy:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...331/story.html

“He’s putting a lot of pressure on himself,” said assistant to the general manager Craig Conroy. “We’ve talked to Sven, told him ‘Hey, do what you do. Have fun. Smile.’ For a while there, at the Penticton tournament he seemed . . . he just wasn’t in a good place. He didn’t seem to be enjoying himself. The weight of the world seemed to be on his shoulders.

“When he’s at his best, he’s playing with speed, moving his feet, making plays. At the beginning of camp, I felt like he was standing around a little bit, watching. But people have piled a ton of pressure on Sven, saying he’s going to be this and that, he’s going to be the next Jarome.

“It takes time. This is a league for men. And he’s just starting out.

“With Bob, it’s going be getting in the forecheck. You can’t just come in, swing your stick and hope you get it. You’ve got to get in, use your body and take pucks away. I think he understands that and he’s trying to do it but he’s gotta play, too. He’s got to skate, shoot the puck. In the defensive zone, a little more aware of where his point, where the puck’s coming and a little more battle.

“But he’s working hard, working with the coaches and he wants to do it. So while you don’t want to put too much pressure on him, you want to see him getting better game in and game out.”

Feaster:

Feaster agreed.
“Sven is still very much a work in progress,” Feaster said. “There are times when you watch Sven and say, ‘Boy, that’s so exciting,’ and you smile with anticipation about what could be. And then there are other times — and I think Brian’s right — when you look in the other two zones and you say, ‘Oh boy, we need to work on that.’ He’s still trying to figure out how to be a good pro, how to prepare every day.
“I met with Sven over the weekend and I told him, ‘We’re going to help you. You need to trust us. You need to do the things the coaches are asking you to do. But we’re going to get through this together.’ ”

Baertschi himself (on taking a leadership role at camp):

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/07/11...p-step-by-step

“I feel a little old now,” Baertschi said. “I remember my first camp. Back then, I had guys like Lance Bouma and Greg Nemisz who had been around for a while. Now, I’m trying to be like those guys, try to help the younger guys with certain things, tell them where to go. It’s our job, as older guys who have been here for a couple years already, to help the young guys.”

Baertschi on having fun at camp:

http://flamesfrom80feet.blogspot.co....p-fun-for.html

"You want to be focused and you want to put in your work, but there are certain times at camp where you just have to have fun," Baertschi said. "I’m that type of guy, I want to have fun no matter what it is. Usually you play better hockey when you’re having fun, you practice better when you're having fun. You’re still focused but you just enjoy it a little more and that’s part of the game. You don’t want to lose that as soon as you come to the rink."

Read into it all as much as you want – there is no actual evidence of an attitude problem. No evidence of a player who doesn't want to do what's asked of him. Evidence of a player struggling to do what's asked of him? Yes. A player feeling the pressure of an entire fanbase's expectation (at the time)? Big time.

A player who hasn't lived up to his own expectations of himself and was in a subsequent slump is NOT player with a bad attitude. He's a human fricken being.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by New Era

No, I'm asking you to prove your claim. If you are so certain what you believe it factual you should have no problem proving your claim.

Yes, it is. You stand up and try that crap in the classroom or the boardroom you'll get your head handed to you. You are countering someone's claim with one of your own. You are expected to back up that claim. If someone stands up and claims "the founding fathers were Christians" and you claim otherwise, the onus is equally on you to prove otherwise. If someone claims that investing in said portfolio is a wise decision, and you claim otherwise, the onus is then on you to prove why it is a bad investment decision. You have made a claim about Baertschi's attitude, to which there is evidence to support the claim - through cryptic comments from management followed by benchings, a demotion, and passovers in the minors for call ups - so the onus is on you to either prove your position correct or that of the other individual incorrect. Basic rules of rhetorical engagement.

So, back it up. If your position is solid there must be all sorts of stories or quotes from different members in the Flames organization that Baertschi displayed a professional attitude during the time frame in question.

Sorry, won't allow you to turn this around on me.

Look at your previous posts and my reply. I simply said back up what you've said, that's all. Your inability to actually do so and attempt to turn it around on me to prove a negative is rather childish and borderline stupid. I was never countering your claim, I was asking you to prove yours. You haven't been able to do that.

I've been in classrooms, I've been in boardrooms. When someone makes a claim about an issue they are asked to expand on it and explain why it's an issue with evidence and proof. They don't sit back down, sulk in the chair and yell out "prove me wrong!' like you're attempting to do. You're really hugely confused.

I'll say it again in case you missed it. I was never countering your claim, I was asking you to prove yours.

All your chest beating, your board room analogies, silly bravado and long winded posts about nothing doesn't change that.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

We all see the obvious problems with the player, but some posters are making up a fantasy story out if thin air about the cause of his problems. You keep propagating this story about a 'kid who just doesn't want to put in the work', and then all the little sheepies believe that BS and it becomes this overblown myth about the player. The 'attitude' aspect to your argument is pure conjecture. Yes, he's struggled to play a complete game, but it is beyond idiotic to think that Sven doesn't want to play the game that's expected of him. Feaster & Burke criticised Sven's game, but never his attitude.

I've scoured this board and 'the public record' & the only thing even resembling an official quote re: Sven not wanting to be at either of the camps' mentioned comes from Rob Kerr via HFboards. Kerr on air said something along the lines of 'Well, if you were 20 years old and on the verge of becoming an NHL regular you probably wouldn't give your all until the main camp either.'

Here are some actual quotes from this summer though it's not as interesting as making up soap opera storylines:

Conroy:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...331/story.html



Feaster:



Baertschi himself (on taking a leadership role at camp):

http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/07/11...p-step-by-step



Baertschi on having fun at camp:

http://flamesfrom80feet.blogspot.co....p-fun-for.html



Read into it all as much as you want – there is no actual evidence of an attitude problem. No evidence of a player who doesn't want to do what's asked of him. Evidence of a player struggling to do what's asked of him? Yes. A player feeling the pressure of an entire fanbase's expectation (at the time)? Big time.

A player who hasn't lived up to his own expectations of himself and was in a subsequent slump is NOT player with a bad attitude. He's a human fricken being.

Good rebuttal. Some good quotes there, especially from the player. The team's actions have to be considered also, but as I said, I think Baertschi's work in the minors has said a lot about his character and attitude. I think he's working on getting his head set for professional hockey and that will pay off in the long run. How long that is, is up to the player. He has a lot of competition to work against, which is a good thing for the hockey club.

[PeteMoss]

Everyone is getting caught in semantics here.

Burke said he doesn't compete in all three zones. Why is (was?) he not competing all three zones? Is it laziness? Bad attitude? Not knowing what to do?

It could be anyone of those things. He has had a disappointing year. He's shown some signs of late of coming out of it and hopefully it continues.

Bad attitude or not... he needs to show up at camp next year ready to compete for a job.

[Dienasty]

New era give it a rest, you are taking burkes words out of context to support your opinion saying the organization has called him a whiner. The difference between you and Vulcan is that he is saying "in my opinion" and inferring from what he saw.

As for saying mastodon has to prove that baertschi isn't a whiner is the dumbest thing I have heard. The prosecutor in a court room doesn't claim someone committed a crime and that not back it up with evidence... The defense never has to make a case if there is no proof from the prosecutor, Innocent until PROVEN guilty, not the other way around. In this case you are accusing baertschi of a bad attitude, but have no proof. You may be right, but there is only circumstantial evidence (and that is a reach) to support your opinion.

Move on

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I simply said back up what you've said, that's all.

And I did. Those quotes and the actions of the team - negative comments, benchings, demotion, failure to be called up - all indicate there is an issue with the player. He has the tools, but is lacking what? The appears to be two or three possibilities. The obvious choices are he either lacks a tool box, isn't that good a player after all, isn't putting in the effort, or a combination there of. Or do you have another theory?

Speaking of said theory, what did you bring to support your claim? Only another claim that there was no problem to begin with. Too bad you weren't half as smart as you think you are, otherwise you would have done the work Flamezilla did and presented the other side of the argument that you so firmly believe in. I'm not 100 percent convinced there is not more to the Baertschi story than what has been presented, but credit to Flamezilla for presenting an argument that provides some food for thought on the subject and not just an empty claim.

[Dion]

Just agree to disagree and move on New Era. MMF has a point about one backing up their claims and the onus being on you.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Everyone is getting caught in semantics here.

Burke said he doesn't compete in all three zones. Why is (was?) he not competing all three zones? Is it laziness? Bad attitude? Not knowing what to do?

It could be anyone of those things. He has had a disappointing year. He's shown some signs of late of coming out of it and hopefully it continues.

Bad attitude or not... he needs to show up at camp next year ready to compete for a job.

Here's my post from before we went to crazy town:

My take on it? I think Burke's arrival coincided with the coaching staff asking Baertschi to focus a lot more on the defensive side of the game (I think we can all agree this was probably the case). I think Sven was focussing on where the coaching staff wanted him to be, but this would have conflicted with his natural playing instincts, so he must have been way out of his comfort zone while he was trying to improve these other facets of his game. I think it's natural that he was probably over-thinking simple plays and taking too long to decide what to do. That's how I interpreted it when I saw him struggling with the Flames earlier this season, anyway.

Burke's most recent quote backs that up, saying Sven has improved dramatically as a 3-zone, 60-minute player, but hasn't found his offence yet. That Burke quote was before Sven's recent hot streak (and injury layoff) BTW.

If we get a defensively sound top 6 forward out of Baertschi I think these development tactics will have paid off.

I think it's important not to propagate the myth that Baertschi is a whiner with a bad attitude (check out Rerun's post from a few pages back which kicked off this whole argument). He's a young player that's struggled and the last thing he needs next season are a load of fans who think he's a self-entitled little ####, especially when the grounds for believing that are pretty much total conjecture.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by New Era

And I did. Those quotes and the actions of the team - negative comments, benchings, demotion, failure to be called up - all indicate there is an issue with the player. He has the tools, but is lacking what? The appears to be two or three possibilities. The obvious choices are he either lacks a tool box, isn't that good a player after all, isn't putting in the effort, or a combination there of. Or do you have another theory?

Speaking of said theory, what did you bring to support your claim? Only another claim that there was no problem to begin with. Too bad you weren't half as smart as you think you are, otherwise you would have done the work Flamezilla did and presented the other side of the argument that you so firmly believe in. I'm not 100 percent convinced there is not more to the Baertschi story than what has been presented, but credit to Flamezilla for presenting an argument that provides some food for thought on the subject and not just an empty claim.

Do you have trouble reading?

I never made a claim. I even said it twice last post for you. All I ever did was ask you to back yours up. The shots and the emotion don't change that.

[Lanny_McDonald]

You're right. Let's agree to disagree and pick this back up next training camp, after Baertschi helps Abbotsford win the Calder Cup!

[Rerun]

From another thread...

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...3&postcount=35

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

There are multiple reasons I feel he's pouting:

1. The way management is handling this indicates to me that they are dealing with a player that is not putting effort in and is not buying into having to put the effort in.

2. When Sven himself speaks, you can hear the frustration in his voice, the defensiveness about his play and how he's handling himself.

3. And this is the most important for me, and I've been trying to avoid posting it again because I know how it will be met by some, but I actually know he's pouting. I mentioned this in a thread a few weeks back discussing Sven, so I'll say it again: if the mods want me to say my source I will let them know via PM, and if they don't feel it's sufficient I will gladly remove this post (but I will not say who my source is publicly to protect their relationship). But I know someone who has a direct relationship with Sven. It's a professional relationship, not hockey or media related.

Sven is absolutely on full pout mode, and is furious with the Flames and has been since at least when they informed him he was going to need to attend rookie camp in Penticton. And not a "good" I'm pissed off I'll show them furious, a bad I'm upset and am now engaging in a battle of wills about where and when I'll put my effort in upset. He's made numerous comments to my friend about how he feels about it that as a Flames fan and someone who wants Sven to be good on this team I find very concerning.

Then as camp rolls along and you hear the comments from management it just adds further validation to the fears I had earlier in the year as I was starting to hear the things he was saying to my contact.

So there it is. You can either call CSW a liar or believe what he's said. I believe him.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Rerun

From another thread...

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpos...3&postcount=35



So there it is. You can either call CSW a liar or believe what he's said. I believe him.

or you could call the person who told him this a liar. It's hearsay, hardly evidence of anything.

[Freeway]

I've heard similar things from various other sources that I trust. (in terms of pouting.)

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Freeway

I've heard similar things from various other sources that I trust. (in terms of pouting.)

Tanguay 2.0?

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by Freeway

I've heard similar things from various other sources that I trust. (in terms of pouting.)

So put your money where your mouth is. Several posters have been asked to provide quotes they said they had, and didn't deliver. Past time one of you posts some kind of quote from a relevant source that ousts Baertschi as a self serving A-hole the way some portray him, or STFU.

[irrevocable]

Originally Posted by ignite09

So put your money where your mouth is. Several posters have been asked to provide quotes they said they had, and didn't deliver. Past time one of you posts some kind of quote from a relevant source that ousts Baertschi as a self serving A-hole the way some portray him, or STFU.

lol, you kinda went mental didn't ya? aww. I'll admit--a part of me really does feel as you do.. but come on, man. lol. Seriously? It's not some mystery that Sven is a wee bit entitled. Deal with it. You know who else is entitled? Patrick Kane, yeah.. that guy. If Sven is half as good as Kane let's be happy.

You weirdo.

[ignite09]

Originally Posted by irrevocable

lol, you kinda went mental didn't ya? aww. I'll admit--a part of me really does feel as you do.. but come on, man. lol. Seriously? It's not some mystery that Sven is a wee bit entitled. Deal with it. You know who else is entitled? Patrick Kane, yeah.. that guy. If Sven is half as good as Kane let's be happy.

You weirdo.

Coming up with no proof other then snide remarks and insults doesn't help your position. You and those who are jumping too conclusions like you, still come across as looking for drama that isn't there.