03-22-2014, 02:12 PM
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#941
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
Yeah....and the fact that they voted to join Russia.
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"Voted" that as as real as a North Korean election
__________________
Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
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03-22-2014, 02:13 PM
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#942
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteMoss
"voted"
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True, however it wouldn't be the first time a vote was screwed with....cough Florida 2000.....cough. PIM King didn't respond to the rest of my post where I said basically Russia had a hammer over Ukraine for Crimea, whereas Poland or Lithuania hold no hammer over Russia for Kaliningrad. Which is why Russia won't hand it over.
Last edited by Zulu29; 03-22-2014 at 02:16 PM.
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03-22-2014, 02:19 PM
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#943
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Richmond, BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIMking
Well you said that the Crimea is Russian before. So Königsberg going to be handed back over to the Germans? It was German before Russian
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They expelled all the Germans. It's a very heavily Russian area.
__________________
"For thousands of years humans were oppressed - as some of us still are - by the notion that the universe is a marionette whose strings are pulled by a god or gods, unseen and inscrutable." - Carl Sagan
Freedom consonant with responsibility.
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03-22-2014, 02:28 PM
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#944
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evman150
They expelled all the Germans. It's a very heavily Russian area.
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Then all these other countries that have Russian minority should expel everyone of them Russians. So Vladimir can't claim that they're being abused.
__________________
Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
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03-22-2014, 03:09 PM
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#945
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evman150
They expelled all the Germans. It's a very heavily Russian area.
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But the overall point stands. Russia is full of regions where national minorities make up regional majorities. Why don't they have a referendums in Karelia, Chechnya, Chuvashia, Tatarstan, Dagestan... etc....
The never recognized the independence of Kosovo under the premise that national minorities do not have the right to break up a country.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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03-22-2014, 03:15 PM
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#946
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
But the overall point stands. Russia is full of regions where national minorities make up regional majorities. Why don't they have a referendums in Karelia, Chechnya, Chuvashia, Tatarstan, Dagestan... etc....
The never recognized the independence of Kosovo under the premise that national minorities do not have the right to break up a country.
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No, the point doesn't stand. The whole argument started with why doesn't Russia give back Kaliningrad to Germany because it's historically German. The difference between Kaliningrad and Crimea is that one country wanted what another had and it took it because it could. No one can take Kaliningrad, Chechnya etc from Russia.
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03-22-2014, 03:18 PM
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#947
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
No, the point doesn't stand. The whole argument started with why doesn't Russia give back Kaliningrad to Germany because it's historically German. The difference between Kaliningrad and Crimea is that one country wanted what another had and it took it because it could. No one can take Kaliningrad, Chechnya etc from Russia.
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No, that wasn't the point. It was that historical holdings are no longer relevant, and as a result most countries move on, Russia acts like an #######. He gave an example of a historical territory and a rhetorical question. You went literal.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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03-22-2014, 03:22 PM
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#948
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
No, that wasn't the point. It was that historical holdings are no longer relevant, and as a result most countries move on, Russia acts like an #######. He gave an example of a historical territory and a rhetorical question. You went literal.
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Does Germany lease a naval base in Kaliningrad? Is the population there overwhelmingly German? Is one of the nations 9 hero cities located there?
No. Completely different circumstances as to why Russia wanted that chunk of land vs some strange argument that all historical lands should be returned to prior rulers. So in that spirit Alaska should be returned to Russia?
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03-22-2014, 03:24 PM
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#949
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Franchise Player
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No, because everyone is saying that historical possession doesn't matter.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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03-22-2014, 03:25 PM
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#950
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
No, because everyone is saying that historical possession doesn't matter.
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Which is EXACTLY what I've been saying...they took it over for the naval base.
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03-22-2014, 03:27 PM
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#951
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
It was Russian for centuries before being handed over ceremoniously in the 50's after all.
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This is what he was referring to.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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03-22-2014, 03:35 PM
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#952
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
This is what he was referring to.
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Even that argument is thin since Crimea was ceremoniously gifted to Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union. No one involved in that process at the time ever pictured the collapse of the USSR or they would have never handed it over like that. I've read that Kruschev likely made the decision while drunk.
Kaliningrad by contrast was taken over by force during the war. And also that was agreed upon by the US and UK at the time.
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03-22-2014, 03:37 PM
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#953
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
Even that argument is thin since Crimea was ceremoniously gifted to Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union. No one involved in that process at the time ever pictured the collapse of the USSR or they would have never handed it over like that. I've read that Kruschev likely made the decision while drunk.
Kaliningrad by contrast was taken over by force during the war. And also that was agreed upon by the US and UK at the time.
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How about when the USSR had collapsed and they guaranteed it's borders in exchange for their nukes? They could have foreseen something that had already happened.
Borders change and everyone else deals with it. There's no justification for peeling off a minority heavy segment of another country.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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Last edited by nik-; 03-22-2014 at 03:39 PM.
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03-22-2014, 03:57 PM
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#954
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
How about when the USSR had collapsed and they guaranteed it's borders in exchange for their nukes? They could have foreseen something that had already happened.
Borders change and everyone else deals with it. There's no justification for peeling off a minority heavy segment of another country.
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I'm not justifying what Russia did. I'm looking as to why they did it in a logical way. They obviously wanted it for the naval base. It also seems from news reports and articles that a lot of Crimeans wanted to rejoin the Russian federation. It sounds like that's the case in eastern Ukraine as well. So if eastern Ukraine votes to leave for Russia what's your take on that? Hard to blame them really, they speak Russian, have Russian traditions and would probably like to be a part of a stronger Russian Federation than a collapsing Ukraine.
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03-22-2014, 04:06 PM
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#955
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Franchise Player
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My take on it is it shouldn't be allowed, just like Quebec shouldn't be allowed to separate. If the Russians in east Ukraine long to live in Russia then they should move to Russia. If they don't want to move to Russia because that land is their home, then stay there ... but you're in Ukraine.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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03-22-2014, 04:11 PM
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#956
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik-
My take on it is it shouldn't be allowed, just like Quebec shouldn't be allowed to separate. If the Russians in east Ukraine long to live in Russia then they should move to Russia. If they don't want to move to Russia because that land is their home, then stay there ... but you're in Ukraine.
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I disagree. I don't think it's right to force a region of people to stay in a country if they don't want to be a part of it anymore. I wouldn't like it if Quebec chose to separate, but I would understand.
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03-22-2014, 04:14 PM
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#957
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
I disagree. I don't think it's right to force a region of people to stay in a country if they don't want to be a part of it anymore. I wouldn't like it if Quebec chose to separate, but I would understand.
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They don't have to stay, they can #### off to Russia.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to nik- For This Useful Post:
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03-22-2014, 04:37 PM
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#958
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
Even that argument is thin since Crimea was ceremoniously gifted to Ukraine when it was part of the Soviet Union. No one involved in that process at the time ever pictured the collapse of the USSR or they would have never handed it over like that. I've read that Kruschev likely made the decision while drunk.
Kaliningrad by contrast was taken over by force during the war. And also that was agreed upon by the US and UK at the time.
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They also agreed to split Berlin into sectors. So is. Russia going into Germany now for Berlin? You know this day agreed on it
__________________
Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
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03-22-2014, 04:41 PM
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#959
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kelowna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PIMking
They also agreed to split Berlin into sectors. So is. Russia going into Germany now for Berlin? You know this day agreed on it
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You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about this. Try to stay with the tour and read my and Nik's posts above.
Last time I checked, Germany unified and Berlin did not want to break off and join Russia.
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03-22-2014, 04:42 PM
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#960
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulu29
You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about this. Try to stay with the tour and read my and Nik's posts above.
Last time I checked, Germany unified and Berlin did not want to break off and join Russia.
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The reason is because this is illegal and shouldn't be allowed.
__________________
Thank you for everything CP. Good memories and thankful for everything that has been done to help me out. I will no longer take part on these boards. Take care, Go Flames Go.
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