Will Gretzky's numbers ever be broken?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

The toughest Gretzky number to exceed will be 99.

IIRC, he wore that number with every team he played for in the NHL.

They would have to add an extra digit to the jersey to go any higher, and I just don't see the NHL allowing that.

Perhaps not, but the XHL will. Oh yeah. Its happening....

[flambers]

No chance, dang I remember going into hockey pools and Gretzky was not allowed to be taken

100 point season today are really good. Back in the 80's Wayne was breaking 200 points

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by wretched34

Considering Lemieux's health through the majority of his career, I think it's safe to say his production did slow, and the stats take that into account, much like a player towards the end of their career. Had Lemieux been healthy for the better part of his career, those numbers would be higher, then extend the career as long as Gretzky's, and I think he would have blown Gretzky's goal record away by a mile. But even playing injured, which he did for a long time, he was still putting up better GPG totals than Gretzky.

Except even Lemieux's best seasons, at his peak, weren't equal to Gretzky's best.

There is just no case here, though Lemieux fans will never let the argument go

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by flambers

No chance, dang I remember going into hockey pools and Gretzky was not allowed to be taken

100 point season today are really good. Back in the 80's Wayne was breaking 200 points

Couldn't you either pick Gretzky's goals or Gretzky's assists? The assists would usually lead the league and goals would usually be top 5.

[Schraderbrau]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

894 goals, 1963 assist, 2857 points.

92 goals in a season
163 assists in a season
215 points in a season ( he had 4 200 point seasons)
50 goals in 39 games
47 points in a single playoff run
31 assist in a single playoff run
and a bunch of other crazy records he holds.

Gretzky was clearly a freak of nature and dominated the game like no one could. Will we ever see another genetic freak come in and break these records or has the game advanced to much for it to happen?

With how the game is played today and how good goalies have become I don't think there is any way his main offensive records can be touched. The game has evolved to much.

I always wonder how guys like Crosby, Stamkos, and OV would fair if they were taken and placed in the NHL circa 1984? Interesting thought to ponder.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hockey when Gretzky played and hockey now are so far apart its hard to believe they're even the same game. Barring making hockey nets the size of soccer nets its never going to happen.

That said, its also pretty pointless to trot Gretz's records out and use them as comparisons for anything or anyone other than players who were in the league at the same time as him.

Well he's not that old. It's not like he was shooting on goalies who weren't wearing masks. Hell, there are a few guys he played against who are still good players in the NHL today.

Of course it has changed, but not that much.

Crosby is the most comparable player today and yeah -- you'll never see an almost-naked Evgeni Malkin in the dressing room, drinking beer and taking a picture with that Arnold from Diff'rent Strokes -- but it's still hockey.

[Hockey]

Originally Posted by username

I remember in Rock em Sock em 3 (yes I'm that old) Don Cherry talking about the only stat that will never be broken and it's hard to argue this:

Bobby Orr finished the 70/71 season a +124

That is incredible, +40 will win it these days.

I remember that. He also had Terry Sawchuks all-time shutout record on there and that's been broken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AcGold]

probably some day, as time goes on kids will be trained scientifically younger and younger. Eventually a kid with the genetics of a monster like Lindros, the mind like Gretzky and the training since childhood will happen. Probably 70 years from now, the person who does it likely isn't alive.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

With how the game is played today and how good goalies have become I don't think there is any way his main offensive records can be touched. The game has evolved to much.

I always wonder how guys like Crosby, Stamkos, and OV would fair if they were taken and placed in the NHL circa 1984? Interesting thought to ponder.

If you took Crosby, with his exact same training, equipment, and skills back to the early 80' it would be a blood bath. He would probably score 300 goals in a single season against the pathetic goalies and pylon defensemen of that era.

It would look like a top rank Midget AAA player, playing against peewees. It is an impossible comparison to make.

I think it would be more interesting, to see what Gretzky could do now. Would he even crack the first line?

[habernac]

Originally Posted by pylon

If you took Crosby, with his exact same training, equipment, and skills back to the early 80' it would be a blood bath. He would probably score 300 goals in a single season against the pathetic goalies and pylon defensemen of that era.

It would look like a top rank Midget AAA player, playing against peewees. It is an impossible comparison to make.

I think it would be more interesting, to see what Gretzky could do now. Would he even crack the first line?

Seriously? He would be training just like the rest of the players. And he'd be twice as good as all of them.

Gretzky would be a star in any era.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by habernac

Seriously? He would be training just like the rest of the players. And he'd be twice as good as all of them.

Gretzky would be a star in any era.

I think your probably right, but sometimes I look at how naturally lanky, and wiry he was, compared to how the players now all seem to be stocky and fast twitch, and it makes me wonder. He wouldn't have near the room to work with now, and he was never really a fast skater. It is impossible to say if he would have been able to develop the equivalent wheels of a current generation superstar.

He had amazing natural tools for his era, but I don't know how well they would translate now. That's all I'm implying.

[habernac]

He had vision that no one short of maybe Lemieux had. He was barely even bodychecked. And it wasn't because of Semenko. It's because he couldn't be caught. He knew they were coming. If they called obstruction in the 80's like they do today, his point totals would be even higher. Just so talented. 1000 points ahead of second place. All time points leader on assists alone. Crazy.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think your probably right, but sometimes I look at how naturally lanky, and wiry he was, compared to how the players now all seem to be stocky and fast twitch, and it makes me wonder. He wouldn't have near the room to work with now, and he was never really a fast skater. It is impossible to say if he would have been able to develop the equivalent wheels of a current generation superstar.

He had amazing natural tools for his era, but I don't know how well they would translate now. That's all I'm implying.

36 year old Gretzky was able to come in 3rd in NHL points in the midst of the dead puck era, so I think he would be fine.

[blender]

Come on, really?

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

Originally Posted by pylon

I look at how naturally lanky, and wiry he was, compared to how the players now all seem to be stocky and fast twitch, and it makes me wonder.

I remember reading about some kinesiologist got access to quite a few elite athletes, including him and -ahem- Ben Johnson. He said that no one he tested had reflexes as fast as Gretzky. I wish I could remember the guy's name.

[Dion]

I question wether Gretz's body would have been able to with stand the physical nature of the game today. The speed of the game and the resulting harder hits would have taken a greater toll on his body. I'm not so sure he would have played as long, with his career points being less.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think it would be more interesting, to see what Gretzky could do now. Would he even crack the first line?

Probably low end first line player. Might get 60 points on the right team. Of course he's also 53.


I think there's often this imaginary barrier in people's minds who didn't watch Gretzky that he was somehow isolated in the 1980's and we never got to compare him with real players.

The 1998 season is all you need to know about Gretzky to deduce that players aren't amazingly better. I would say the talent pool is undeniably higher and no doubt goalies are better but not to the extent some people believe. David Moss wouldn't be an All-Star if he teleported back to the 1985 season.

If players are so much better today how could a 37 year old Gretzky lead the league in assists? He finished 3rd in points with Forsberg having a single point more with Jagr leading the league. In the 1998 season we had Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, Selanne, Lindros, Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Sundin, Fleury etc. Yet this 37 year old was able to put up 90 points against goaltenders that included Brodeur, Roy and Hasek when most of that list couldn't.

Sure it was a farcry from 200 points but we saw an out of his prime Gretzky capable of competing with players that were stars themselves in the 2000's. The leading scorer of that year is now 42 and leading his team by 15 points while being in the top 25 for points. So if a 42 year old Jagr is still a top player in 2014, we can probably assume he was pretty good when he 25. Especially considering he had already won an Art Ross and was about to win 4 more. But this 37 year old Gretzky was right there with him when it came to points.

If players are so much better today than they were 10 years ago, Selanne and Jagr shouldn't be playing. If 10 years ago they were so much better than they were 20 years ago, Sakic and Yzerman wouldn't have been stars. Lemieux already having retired twice shouldn't have been able to put up 91 points in 67 games as a 37 year old during the 2003 season.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Assuming Lemieux would continue to produce at the same pace is a big if.

Players slow down at the end of the their career. (I know he missed some in the middle too, but not enough)

And you can add 'if's to Gretzky's numbers too

Really? Like what?

Among all the amazing features of Gretzky's career, one of them has to be his remarkable longevity, consistency and good health. His greatness was in no way a product of luck by any stretch of the imagination, but Gretzky certainly enjoyed an unusually high amount of good fortune from the beginning to the end of his entire career.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Probably low end first line player. Might get 60 points on the right team. Of course he's also 53.


I think there's often this imaginary barrier in people's minds who didn't watch Gretzky that he was somehow isolated in the 1980's and we never got to compare him with real players.

The 1998 season is all you need to know about Gretzky to deduce that players aren't amazingly better. I would say the talent pool is undeniably higher and no doubt goalies are better but not to the extent some people believe. David Moss wouldn't be an All-Star if he teleported back to the 1985 season.

If players are so much better today how could a 37 year old Gretzky lead the league in assists? He finished 3rd in points with Forsberg having a single point more with Jagr leading the league. In the 1998 season we had Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, Selanne, Lindros, Modano, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Sundin, Fleury etc. Yet this 37 year old was able to put up 90 points against goaltenders that included Brodeur, Roy and Hasek when most of that list couldn't.

Sure it was a farcry from 200 points but we saw an out of his prime Gretzky capable of competing with players that were stars themselves in the 2000's. The leading scorer of that year is now 42 and leading his team by 15 points while being in the top 25 for points. So if a 42 year old Jagr is still a top player in 2014, we can probably assume he was pretty good when he 25. Especially considering he had already won an Art Ross and was about to win 4 more. But this 37 year old Gretzky was right there with him when it came to points.

If players are so much better today than they were 10 years ago, Selanne and Jagr shouldn't be playing. If 10 years ago they were so much better than they were 20 years ago, Sakic and Yzerman wouldn't have been stars. Lemieux already having retired twice shouldn't have been able to put up 91 points in 67 games as a 37 year old during the 2003 season.

Well done. I've thanked your posts many times and look forward to future contributions.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by pylon

I think your probably right, but sometimes I look at how naturally lanky, and wiry he was, compared to how the players now all seem to be stocky and fast twitch, and it makes me wonder. He wouldn't have near the room to work with now, and he was never really a fast skater. It is impossible to say if he would have been able to develop the equivalent wheels of a current generation superstar.

He had amazing natural tools for his era, but I don't know how well they would translate now. That's all I'm implying.

The funny thing is that this is precisely what pundits were saying about Gretzky when he first came to the NHL. Too small, too skinny, not fast enough or strong enough for the man's game.