Burke on TSN 1050 Leafs Lunch

[Mr.Coffee]

^ those are pretty crazy stats then. Question is do those numbers put him in contention for the Norris?

[blender]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

^ those are pretty crazy stats then. Question is do those numbers put him in contention for the Norris?

Doubt it, but I won't think any less of him.

Who votes on the Norris? If it is writers, I bet he's under the eastern media radar.

[Calgary4LIfe]

^^ Don't forget about Backlund blocking a shot later in the game as well! Great to see everyone's commitment to their game regardless of what the score is. Definitely great to see everyone buying-in and doing their part, regardless of their role on the team.

I didn't want Hartley as the coach to start with. I have quickly changed my stance, however.

The single most important defect this team has had since probably the '04 run was the culture. I don't blame it on Iginla, or any other vet (and let's not start that debate again!). I always thought that the culture the team has, really starts with the coach.

This team was probably the hardest working and most aggressive team in '04. They hustled on almost every shift. They would find excuses to punish you physically. They never stopped working. It wasn't Iginla, it wasn't Simon, it wasn't Regehr.... it was Darryl Sutter that forced this culture onto the team.

Once he stepped down and Playfair took over, this team seemed to lose a bit of that 'edge'. Then Keenan came on board, and they became a team that was allowed to change into some 'fancy' team that tried to beat you with plays and skill rather than hard, consistent work. Under Brent, he seemed to have tried to get that mentality back of 'hard work' and 'team play', but it just never worked (not to mention, the Flames were one of the smallest teams in the NHL and Brent seemed to have his system revolve around the cycle - which I think is very difficult for a smaller team).

The team has entered a rebuild. The one thing I most wanted purged was this sense of entitlement that made this team stink in some way. There whole was substantially less than the sum of its' parts since '04.

Hartley has ensured that this is a hard-working team that is willing to battle for 60 minutes on most nights. They have come from behind quite a bit this season, when in seasons past it seemed once they were down by a goal or two, the game was essentially 'over'. This team rarely gives up. It rarely takes a night off. It seems to me that Hartley has forced his culture on this team - be hard working, physically fit, and compete on every shift. Just like Darryl Sutter had his team competing.

This is what I most wanted to see this season. Feaster talked about it (and started taking heat right away as people misinterpreted his comments right away) after the trade deadline last year. He said something like: "Our goal is to make the playoffs every year. A rebuild is not an excuse to give up and not play hard." (Paraphrasing here - can't remember his exact quote). I loved these comments (so Darryl Sutter-esque). Had serious doubts about it actually being implemented.

Thought the games last year might have just been that 'energy' of kids trying to prove themselves, players maybe playing for some contracts - still didn't buy that the Flames changed the culture for sure.

After seeing what we have been seeing this season - I would say it is safe to say Hartley has changed it.

There are three things I really love moving forward:

1) Flames making an emphasis on high-hockey IQ types (make the smarter choices on the ice, more easily coach-able, adapt better to new situations and roles) with strong character (train harder, usually are better pros, usually less self-entitlement issues, less distractions in the locker room).
2) Flames will be drafting fairly high this year and next. Seem to have pretty good talent coming up (though they need more of that 'game-breaking' elite talent). There should be an influx of highly talented kids possessing the IQ and character from point 1.
3) They enter a team that has a culture and identity of working hard and playing as a team. Hartley isn't afraid to bench and demote players (see Baertschi, Colborne, Backlund, Monahan's ice-time too at times).

This team, though near the bottom of the league, doesn't have a stink about it. If anything, there are some very, very positive things surrounding this team.

Glad to hear Burke talk positively about Hartley, and making the joke about the fist-fight if he asked Hartley to tank. This team has maintained its' integrity in the league (probably increased it this past season, which I think is pretty tough for rebuilding teams to do!).

Maybe Hartley isn't the right guy to get this team past that 'hump' when the time comes. For now, he is definitely the right coach to bring the youth in and get their ears wet in the NHL.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

+4 on a team with a -37 goal differential playin against top opposition. If he played 82 games he is on pace for 63pts. Superstar defense numbers for sure

You can't even argue this point. Gio to most has been one of those hardworking Joe types over the years, but whether people can admit it or not he's taken his game to another level this season, while not only proving to be a top pairing defender but possibly in the top 10-15 in the league.

Everybody can say Doughty looked like a stud for team Canada in the Olympics generating offense when the team was struggling. Giordano actually has better numbers than him this year with 20 less games played.

Most impressive is that he's a plus player on THIS team while facing top opposition. Very few defenders in this league in his position with those minutes would be.

He's undoubtedly put himself in "elite" territory among defensemen. Have to wonder if Norris consideration is in order.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

You can't even argue this point. Gio to most has been one of those hardworking Joe types over the years, but whether people can admit it or not he's taken his game to another level this season, while not only proving to be a top pairing defender but possibly in the top 10-15 in the league.

Everybody can say Doughty looked like a stud for team Canada in the Olympics generating offense when the team was struggling. Giordano actually has better numbers than him this year with 20 less games played.

Most impressive is that he's a plus player on THIS team while facing top opposition. Very few defenders in this league in his position with those minutes would be.

He's undoubtedly put himself in "elite" territory among defensemen. Have to wonder if Norris consideration is in order.

So passionately agree. I didn't dislike or bash Bouwmeester when he was here, bet he was a minus player on "better" teams, and the excuse (that I agreed with) was that he was playing against top competition.

I would say that the Gio today is better than phanuef in prime, Bouwmeester at any point in his career, Regehr (only because of offense) and any defenseman the flames have had since MacInnes and Suter. I would say he is better than Letang ever was, and Letang has had Norris hype.

He is a very very good 2nd level defenseman, behind only the likes of Weber, keith, doughty, charra and Suter. But only just.

[formulate]

Good to hear Burke is a big fan of Hartley and not a big fan of the tank.

The only 2 things holding Giordano back from Norris consideration (and likely a nomination) are missed games due to injury, and playing on a bottom-5 team. It's been mentioned that he is 15th in defensemen scoring, 3rd in points per game. +4 on a -37 team. Outstanding.

I took a look into his advanced numbers, and it's arguably more impressive.

Top 60 in corsi (possession) percentage. 52% on a team that collectively a shade over 45%.
1st in relative corsi percentage. The Flames are 7.9% better when he is on the ice.
Depending on the metric, anywhere from top 10 to 1st in quality of competition. Of the guys with better possession numbers, only Chara, Oduya and Hjalmarsson play against better players, and all three start much more often in the offensive zone.
9th in toughest zone starts (most defensive assignments). Only TJ Brodie has close to the same possession numbers with the same level of defensive assignments. Any nobody is anywhere near his offensive production.

Basically, Giordano gets on the ice against the best players in the league, just a few feet away from Ramo/Berra/Ortio/MacDonald, and more often than not the puck ends up in the other end or goal (with his name on the scoresheet).
I think Duncan Keith is pretty much a lock for the Norris, but I maintain that if Gio was healthy all year and playing for even the Dallas Stars, he'd be a nominee.

[FunkMasterFlame]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I didn't want Hartley as the coach to start with. I have quickly changed my stance, however....

Excellent post, well reasoned and well put. Thanks for your insight!

[prizefighterinferno]

The two biggest differences in Gio's game this season vs. the last two seasons are a) shot selection and b) decision making when exiting the zone. I can recall many a time in the two seasons prior where Gio would almost wait until a guy got into the lane before he let a shot go harmlessly off the shinpads, or when he would be pressured in the zone and fire the puck up the wall for an icing. This season he is making way better decisions and using his feet and his partner (and it doesn't hurt having an ultra-mobile guy back there like Brodie with him, to be sure) in order to escape the zone, and his shots have been infinitely better timed/placed.

To my eye, that is.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

^ those are pretty crazy stats then. Question is do those numbers put him in contention for the Norris?

He's definitely deserving of Norris conversation, and probably should be a finalist. Whether he gets that high in the voting, I don't know. Reputation goes a long way in voting.

It's not like the doughtys and webers have had bad seasons. They will get their reputation votes. Giordano may be hurt in the voting because he plays for a team at the bottom of the standings.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Lidstrom was also passed over a few times for the Norris even though he had better numbers because he wasn't 'the name' yet. I think the two best individual awards in hockey is the Art Ross and the Rocket Richard, but only because there is no controversy. Not that I don't think the Norris, Selke, etc., are garbage or something - just that controversy sometimes takes the shine away from trophies.

It would be nice to see Giordano get nominated this year. He deserves a nod for sure, but arguable for the win.

Thanks Formulate for those advanced stats (ran out of thanks)- nice to see what us fans see with our 'eyes' watching the game matching up with the advanced stats. (some hate advanced stats, but I really enjoy it).