Ja’afari Law in Iraq (Legalized Religious Rape)

[puckluck2]

I don't understand the point of that EM affairs link. Want to post a snippet of what your point was because I just read the whole article and it just seems like a what-not-to-do as a muslim.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I don't understand the point of that EM affairs link. Want to post a snippet of what your point was because I just read the whole article and it just seems like a what-not-to-do as a muslim.

The article talks about the fact that Muslims are no different than the average joe and do have em affairs....

One of the negative trends mostly ‘brushed under the carpet’ in Pakistan are extra-marital affairs, commonly known in international media as ‘cheating’. I can identify at least half a dozen such cases, some that have gone as far as Zina (adultery). Some of them resulted in broken homes damaged beyond repair, and a sad reminder of how a marriage can be ruined due to the mistake of one or both partners.

Saima*, a happily married and well-off mother discovered her husband having an affair with her maid. Her entire world came crashing down. After a volatile confrontation, her husband begged forgiveness and vowed to mend his ways. However, just six months later, she discovered him texting women on his cell phone. Once again, he asked for forgiveness. With divorce out of the picture for the sake of her children, she continues to live obediently with her husband, but a broken heart filled with disgust and hatred for him. Outwardly, she remains the ‘picture perfect’ urban housewife, complimented for her well-maintained youthful looks and elegant sense of style.

Mahira had a fling with her husband’s best friend, who visited her house often; both of them had children at that time. She decided to end her marriage to be with him, but he could not leave his family for her. Since her divorce, she has been living with her ageing mother. Her adult children are married and leading their own lives.

Uzma’s husband admitted to his long distance affair with a single Muslim woman over the Internet. He had married Uzma after a romantic relationship and they had three children. She also took care of his elderly widowed father, who resided with them. Her husband admitted to have visited his girlfriend on a foreign ‘business’ trip. Now, he wants to marry his girlfriend and bring her into their current home; however, Uzma has told him that if he does, she will leave. Divorce, on the other hand, is out of the question to safeguard their children’s future.

- See more at: http://www.hibamagazine.com/tag/extr....CzmLEJfa.dpuf

[skins]

I think the discussions on use of religion to justify seemingly immoral action is a valid one. However, I would argue that if religion wasn't the vehicle, something else would have been. In fact, I think as culture becomes increasingly secular, this has been proven to be true.

Worst Atrocities of the 20th Century

1 55,000,000 Second World War (Some overlap w/Stalin. Includes Sino-Japanese War and Holocaust. Doesn't incl. post-war German expulsions) 1937/39-1945
2 40,000,000 China: Mao Zedong's regime. (incl. famine) 1949-76
3 20,000,000 USSR: Stalin's regime (incl. WW2-era atrocities) 1924-53
4 15,000,000 First World War (incl. Armenian massacres) 1914-18
5 8,800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21
6 4,000,000 China: Warlord & Nationalist Era 1917-37
7 3,000,000 Congo Free State [n.1] (1900)-08
8 2,800,000 Korean War 1950-53
8 2,800,000 2nd Indochina War (incl. Laos & Cambodia) 1960-75
10 2,500,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49

See the link below for the rest of the top 30. While I haven't researched all of them, I think almost all of them were not religiously motivated.

The 20th Century Was the Bloodiest in Human History

[Cheese]

Those were not "secular" wars.

[skins]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Those were not "secular" wars.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. What I'm saying that most of these conflicts were not initiated, motivated or justified by religious beliefs. Do you disagree?

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

First of all, which religion? Secondly, you'll have to explain how said religion contributes anything in the context of what you just said.

While you're typing your reply, I'm going to grab some popcorn because it's bound to be one hell of a show watching you contort what you just said into something that meshes with reality.

Well, I'm not an expert in every religion but I'm pretty sure the religious scholars for every one of them would say pornography and extra-marital affairs are prohibited(not sure about alcohol). Now, this does not mean that the followers of religion don't do these things. However, there are definitely people who don't engage in these acts due to their religious beliefs. So, my only point was that religion does have a positive influence for some people and to just brush off every religion as contributing nothing positive to society or human morality is not correct.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Well, I'm not an expert in every religion but I'm pretty sure the religious scholars for every one of them would say pornography and extra-marital affairs are prohibited(not sure about alcohol). Now, this does not mean that the followers of religion don't do these things. However, there are definitely people who don't engage in these acts due to their religious beliefs. So, my only point was that religion does have a positive influence for some people and to just brush off every religion as contributing nothing positive to society or human morality is not correct.

Sounds like religious people are no different than the average person. In other words without religion people would still find positive influences.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Well, I'm not an expert in every religion but I'm pretty sure the religious scholars for every one of them would say pornography and extra-marital affairs are prohibited(not sure about alcohol). Now, this does not mean that the followers of religion don't do these things. However, there are definitely people who don't engage in these acts due to their religious beliefs. So, my only point was that religion does have a positive influence for some people and to just brush off every religion as contributing nothing positive to society or human morality is not correct.

That's a cop-out. You have a religion in mind, why not just say it?

Okay, while you're mustering up the courage, let's go down another line of questions. Why is 'pornography' wrong? Why should we applaud these religions for 'prohibiting' it? The fact that some people don't do action X because their religion tells them not to tells us NOTHING about the validity of prohibiting action X.

Extramarital affairs, given the lax definition of marriage in the religion you're thinking of, there's a lot of lee-way here. You know how many variations of man + woman/women + concubines etc. qualify as a 'marriage' in the Bible?

You know what else a lot of religions prohibit? Divorce. And divorce may be seen as a negative in your narrow view, but should people in a relationship that just isn't working (or worse, an abusive one) be compelled to stay in that relationship because some old rubbish text - translated a hundred times over from the ignorant goat herders who wrote it - says so and therefore is part of their religion?

This is stuff that is made out to be a moral issue and it really isn't. At least not in the way religion would have you believe. Religion is no more a useful contributor to moral guidance than it is a useful contributor of recipes for double-chocolate brownies.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by skins

I'm not quite sure what you mean. What I'm saying that most of these conflicts were not initiated, motivated or justified by religious beliefs. Do you disagree?

I had a big response and lost it...lets just say that the nationalistic wars you mention all have a form of dogma associated with them. The Jews might not think the Second World War was secular for instance.
It should also be mentioned that twentyfirst century has started out with extremist religion as root cause of world strife, so suggesting that as the world becomes more secular, wars or conflicts are less religious is simply untrue.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

That's a cop-out. You have a religion in mind, why not just say it?

Okay, while you're mustering up the courage, let's go down another line of questions. Why is 'pornography' wrong? Why should we applaud these religions for 'prohibiting' it? The fact that some people don't do action X because their religion tells them not to tells us NOTHING about the validity of prohibiting action X.

Extramarital affairs, given the lax definition of marriage in the religion you're thinking of, there's a lot of lee-way here. You know how many variations of man + woman/women + concubines etc. qualify as a 'marriage' in the Bible?

You know what else a lot of religions prohibit? Divorce. And divorce may be seen as a negative in your narrow view, but should people in a relationship that just isn't working (or worse, an abusive one) be compelled to stay in that relationship because some old rubbish text - translated a hundred times over from the ignorant goat herders who wrote it - says so and therefore is part of their religion?

This is stuff that is made out to be a moral issue and it really isn't. At least not in the way religion would have you believe. Religion is no more a useful contributor to moral guidance than it is a useful contributor for recipes for double-chocolate brownies.

Great post. I was trying to think of the words to say the same thing.

[TorqueDog]

Thanks. I just want someone with his sort of viewpoint to answer one simple question: What positive outcome has resulted from religion that could not have been done without it?

[Devils'Advocate]

Life of Brian?

[CarlW]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I had a big response and lost it...lets just say that the nationalistic wars you mention all have a form of dogma associated with them. The Jews might not think the Second World War was secular for instance.
It should also be mentioned that twentyfirst century has started out with extremist religion as root cause of world strife, so suggesting that as the world becomes more secular, wars or conflicts are less religious is simply untrue.

The Chinese Civil War was as secular as can be, Mao's reign (not sure why this is listed as it's not really a war) was just idiocy but not religious, and The Warlord and Nationalist era listed could theoretically be not secular because I believe a couple were Christian warlords (one baptised people with a fire hose or something like that).

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

That's a cop-out. You have a religion in mind, why not just say it?

Okay, while you're mustering up the courage, let's go down another line of questions. Why is 'pornography' wrong? Why should we applaud these religions for 'prohibiting' it? The fact that some people don't do action X because their religion tells them not to tells us NOTHING about the validity of prohibiting action X.

Extramarital affairs, given the lax definition of marriage in the religion you're thinking of, there's a lot of lee-way here. You know how many variations of man + woman/women + concubines etc. qualify as a 'marriage' in the Bible?

You know what else a lot of religions prohibit? Divorce. And divorce may be seen as a negative in your narrow view, but should people in a relationship that just isn't working (or worse, an abusive one) be compelled to stay in that relationship because some old rubbish text - translated a hundred times over from the ignorant goat herders who wrote it - says so and therefore is part of their religion?

This is stuff that is made out to be a moral issue and it really isn't. At least not in the way religion would have you believe. Religion is no more a useful contributor to moral guidance than it is a useful contributor of recipes for double-chocolate brownies.

No, I don't have a particular religion in mind, I think every religion has the ability to be a positive contributor to society. You also asked what is wrong with pornography, there are numerous studies which show the negative effects, everything from depression to ruined marriages. Iceland, a secular country, has actually banned online pornography(and strip clubs). You seem to be missing the point, which is not that you can't be a moral person without religion, but that religion can make one a moral person for different reasons( fear of going to hell,etc).

[normtwofinger]

So what do we do? All out ban on religion?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

No, I don't have a particular religion in mind, I think every religion has the ability to be a positive contributor to society. You also asked what is wrong with pornography, there are numerous studies which show the negative effects, everything from depression to ruined marriages. Iceland, a secular country, has actually banned online pornography(and strip clubs). You seem to be missing the point, which is not that you can't be a moral person without religion, but that religion can make one a moral person for different reasons( fear of going to hell,etc).

Not sure I'm reading this correctly...are you suggesting that a fear of hell or eternal damnation is a positive influence and helps one with morality?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

No, I don't have a particular religion in mind, I think every religion has the ability to be a positive contributor to society. You also asked what is wrong with pornography, there are numerous studies which show the negative effects, everything from depression to ruined marriages. Iceland, a secular country, has actually banned online pornography(and strip clubs). You seem to be missing the point, which is not that you can't be a moral person without religion, but that religion can make one a moral person for different reasons( fear of going to hell,etc).

Iceland hasn't banned online pornography yet, though they have banned pornography in other mediums. However, you clearly don't seem to understand why Iceland banned pornography, and it wasn't for a good reason (and surely for none of yours). It was the same arm-flailing paranoid stupidity that we always hear... "think of the children". Iceland is a great place, but it's not without its faults, and a desire to enact government censorship of the internet is definitely a FAULT.

Your 'numerous studies' (references for which are shockingly absent) are clearly not of concern, as studies that make the claims are continually found to be inconclusive.

YOU seem to be missing the point that there isn't anything (save for 'Life of Brian') that can be accomplished with religion that cannot be accomplished through other means. Also, this wasn't even your original point... your original point was [paraphrasing] "religion has contributed positively because it prohibits pornography, extra-marital relationships, and alcoholism" which, apart from being untrue, was good for one hell of a laugh.

If religion motivates someone to be a better person, hey, great. But motivation can come from a variety of sources, and religion simply isn't required.

By the way, the 'fear of going to hell' is probably the most immoral thing you can inflict upon a child and is tantamount to child abuse. But thanks for coming out, you moral crusader you.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

If religion motivates someone to be a better person, hey, great. But motivation can come from a variety of sources, and religion simply isn't required.

And who exactly is stating that religion is required to be a moral person? Nobody is, so stop twisting words or making up arguments to fit your agenda.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Iceland hasn't banned online pornography yet, though they have banned pornography in other mediums. However, you clearly don't seem to understand why Iceland banned pornography, and it wasn't for a good reason (and surely for none of yours). It was the same arm-flailing paranoid stupidity that we always hear... "think of the children". Iceland is a great place, but it's not without its faults, and a desire to enact government censorship of the internet is definitely a FAULT.

Your 'numerous studies' (references for which are shockingly absent) are clearly not of concern, as studies that make the claims are continually found to be inconclusive.

YOU seem to be missing the point that there isn't anything (save for 'Life of Brian') that can be accomplished with religion that cannot be accomplished through other means. Also, this wasn't even your original point... your original point was [paraphrasing] "religion has contributed positively because it prohibits pornography, extra-marital relationships, and alcoholism" which, apart from being untrue, was good for one hell of a laugh.

If religion motivates someone to be a better person, hey, great. But motivation can come from a variety of sources, and religion simply isn't required.

By the way, the 'fear of going to hell' is probably the most immoral thing you can inflict upon a child and is tantamount to child abuse. But thanks for coming out, you moral crusader you.

Instead of coming up with snarky responses, if you actually take the time to read what I write it would be helpful. I said there are many reasons why some people consider pornography to be harmful (everything from depression to ruined marriages" doesn't mean these are the only 2) and Iceland chose to ban some forms of pornography and contemplating others. Whether you agree with their decision or not is irrelevant, they have decided that it is damaging to some. They didn't just come to the conclusion out of thin air. Also, if you don't think that religion has helped people fight off alcoholism or other evils, THAT is truly worth a laugh.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Not sure I'm reading this correctly...are you suggesting that a fear of hell or eternal damnation is a positive influence and helps one with morality?

Sure, for some I'm sure they refrain from some sins out of a fear of hell/eternal damnation. Just as some don't steal because they don't want to face the consequences of breaking the law rather than their inherent morality.