Ja’afari Law in Iraq (Legalized Religious Rape)

[nik-]

Ok, but what did Muhammed do in his life? Are you saying he didn't participate in several military campaigns because the Quran says to be peaceful?

[WCW Nitro]

The battles were fought due to being oppressed, not to spread the religion with the sword. The next 2 verses clarifies this,and note the mention of God being upset with not just Mosques being destroyed but also Churches and Synagogues.

Quran Ch. 22 verses 39-40.

"Permission to fight has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.They are those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might."

[Looch City]

What would the outcome be if Islam and Christianity were in place of one another? I.e Islam in the west and Christianity in the mid east.

I'd argue they'd be exactly the same. Put those people in the same situation and extremism will arise just the same as now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by MattyC

But what difference does the time period make? A lot of things have changed about the human race, but religious ideologies obviously haven't. Isn't that a serious issue? The unwillingness to change obvious faults and horrors within particularly these to religions seems borderline insane to me. I really have a difficult time understanding it.

Time period matters a lot. Christianity has had to give quite a bit, it isn't operating with quite the influence and power it had in centuries past. Further to that, Christianity isn't growing in North America - it's declining. Irreligion is growing in North America but is being outpaced globally by Islam due to higher birthrates in predominantly Islamic regions.

If you were to ask me if Islam or Christianity was the bigger concern during the Dark Ages, it would be Christianity. No question.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Time period matters a lot. Christianity has had to give quite a bit, it isn't operating with quite the influence and power it had in centuries past. Further to that, Christianity isn't growing in North America - it's declining. Irreligion is growing in North America but is being outpaced globally by Islam due to higher birthrates in predominantly Islamic regions.

If you were to ask me if Islam or Christianity was the bigger concern during the Dark Ages, it would be Christianity. No question.

But my point isn't Christianity vs Islam. My point is that humans have seemingly progressed to a point that there is enough collective knowledge to show that these texts are not the word of a deity, do not describe any sort of creation that is possible, and are a collection of stories with no meaning outside of what an individual decides to give them. Maybe they were supposed to be lessons, maybe they were actually meant to describe the beginnings of Earth (again, that have now shown to be false), or maybe they were just collections of fiction written about characters by different story tellers no different than James Bond.

So knowing what we do, why do we continue to accept them as justification for anything? Why do we accept these as truths when they were written by people with access to a fraction of the information about our surroundings that we currently have? Our views have been changed by science on things like the orientation of the Earth/planets, the shape of the Earth, what electricity is, physics, biology, what is technologically possible, etc... How can an otherwise relatively intelligent person look at something like ancient pagan gods and go "myth" and then look at the Bible/Quran and go "fact"? Can they really not see that it is the exact same thing? Will possible future cultures of humans dig up our comic books and assume that Batman was a legendary god-man who could do things no other person could do and saved the planet multiple times? It's the same thing to me.

So why does this remain? Why is it still a fighting point centuries later? In my opinion it should have been left in the dust a long time ago.

[TorqueDog]

Oh we're totally on the same page. That people can still bring themselves to believe this stuff is shocking, frankly.

FWIW, I'm not posing it as Christianity versus Islam. I'm simply stating that if I were to pick one as being the 'bigger problem', it would be Islam, simply because Christianity has had to fail back from approaching from a position of strength to this ingratiating tone they approach with.

Think of it this way. Both Jesus and Mohammad have been featured on South Park. Only one of those has resulted in credible threats of a car bomb outside the Comedy Central headquarters. Only one of those characters being portrayed in a comic in today's era has resulted in the cartoonist receiving death threads. And what's interesting is that the condemnation is not in the direction of the ones issuing the threats for their hurt feelings, but in the direction of the cartoonist.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Think of it this way. Both Jesus and Mohammad have been featured on South Park. Only one of those has resulted in credible threats of a car bomb outside the Comedy Central headquarters. Only one of those characters being portrayed in a comic in today's era has resulted in the cartoonist receiving death threads. And what's interesting is that the condemnation is not in the direction of the ones issuing the threats for their hurt feelings, but in the direction of the cartoonist.

You could say the exact opposite about abortion clinics.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

You could say the exact opposite about abortion clinics.

Not really. There's usually no condemnation levied in the direction of the doctors or clinics for insulting religious values, and thus the reaction being somewhat justified.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Not really. There's usually no condemnation levied in the direction of the doctors or clinics for insulting religious values, and thus the reaction being somewhat justified.

I'm not sure that's true. Many cases of Doctors being murdered for practicing abortion for exactly that reason. Religious zealousy (is that the right word?).

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm not sure that's true. Many cases of Doctors being murdered for practicing abortion for exactly that reason. Religious zealousy (is that the right word?).

Zealotry?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

What would the outcome be if Islam and Christianity were in place of one another? I.e Islam in the west and Christianity in the mid east.

I'd argue they'd be exactly the same. Put those people in the same situation and extremism will arise just the same as now.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

It depends if all the same events happened in this mirror. Islamic culture reached an incredibly high point, which was cut off by the Mongols, the Crusades and the Reconquista. It seemed to have never recovered. Would the exact same series of events have unfolded if the global positions of the religions were reversed? I think the sure bet is that the Mongols would have, and the other two are debatable.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I'm not sure that's true. Many cases of Doctors being murdered for practicing abortion for exactly that reason. Religious zealousy (is that the right word?).

You're talking about the motivation; I'm talking about the reaction.

We don't condemn the doctors for performing the procedure, we condemn the violence. But the world goes a bit dumb when a cartoonist makes a depiction of the prophet Mohammad and blames him for hurting someone's feelings, as though it justifies the threats. That's where I was going with it. Salman Rushdie went through the same thing. Hell, that's why "Draw Mohammad Day" started.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You're talking about the motivation; I'm talking about the reaction.

We don't condemn the doctors for performing the procedure, we condemn the violence. But the world goes a bit dumb when a cartoonist makes a depiction of the prophet Mohammad and blames him for hurting someone's feelings, as though it justifies the threats. That's where I was going with it. Salman Rushdie went through the same thing. Hell, that's why "Draw Mohammad Day" started.

While I agree for the most part, especially today, but it really wasn't very long ago that even this type of case was the opposite. Abortions and the doctors who provided them were frowned upon by western society pretty much up until the 1990's.

And it's still a very divisive issue due to religious fundamentalism.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by MattyC

While I agree for the most part, especially today, but it really wasn't very long ago that even this type of case was the opposite. Abortions and the doctors who provided them were frowned upon by western society pretty much up until the 1990's.

And it's still a very divisive issue due to religious fundamentalism.

Agreed. But again, I was talking in the context of today. I would love to see religion take not just a back seat, but take the friggin' bus in terms of discussions on morality and well-being of human beings and conscious creatures. It has no place at the table in such a discussion.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Agreed. But again, I was talking in the context of today. I would love to see religion take not just a back seat, but take the friggin' bus in terms of discussions on morality and well-being of human beings and conscious creatures. It has no place at the table in such a discussion.

Yeah I hear you for sure. In my view the time frame doesn't really mean a whole lot (especially one as short as 20-30 years) when the values havent changed much over centuries of changes in many other aspects of human society. That's my whole question. Why is this allowed to remain part of any societal decision making, when there are many other things we have accepted as facts, why is it so hard for people to let go of theistic values? If you need the spirituality to get through the day, or because you fear the idea of straight up death, please, enjoy your chosen religion. But it has no place in governing policies that we are all required to live under.

The church didn't officially recognize and apologize for its transgressions involving Galelio until f***ing 1992. 1992?! Even Edison was able to convince people that Tesla's AC was "evil" and thus they shouldn't use it and they actually listened. How is this even possible? Religion is a hinderance to human progress.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Agreed. But again, I was talking in the context of today. I would love to see religion take not just a back seat, but take the friggin' bus in terms of discussions on morality and well-being of human beings and conscious creatures. It has no place at the table in such a discussion.

I think religion contributes many positives to society. When you look at the negative effects(both mental and physical) of alcoholism, pornography, extra-marital affairs,etc, why doesn't religion get the credit for prohibiting these things?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I think religion contributes many positives to society. When you look at the negative effects(both mental and physical) of alcoholism, pornography, extra-marital affairs,etc, why doesn't religion get the credit for prohibiting these things?

hmmm...religion prohibits pornography, EM Affairs and alcoholism? Which planet is that on again?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

I think religion contributes many positives to society. When you look at the negative effects(both mental and physical) of alcoholism, pornography, extra-marital affairs,etc, why doesn't religion get the credit for prohibiting these things?

First of all, which religion? Secondly, you'll have to explain how said religion contributes anything in the context of what you just said.

While you're typing your reply, I'm going to grab some popcorn because it's bound to be one hell of a show watching you contort what you just said into something that meshes with reality.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

First of all, which religion? Secondly, you'll have to explain how said religion contributes anything in the context of what you just said.

While you're typing your reply, I'm going to grab some popcorn because it's bound to be one hell of a show watching you contort what you just said into something that meshes with reality.

He'll likely just paste a line from the Quran like something in a book actually has relevance in how people actually live.

[Cheese]

While we are waiting some light reading on:
Muslims and porn
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Sta..._-_Pornography

Extramarital affairs
http://www.hibamagazine.com/tag/extra-marital-affairs/

And alcohol

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Sta...ohol_and_Drugs

Alcohol use in predominantly Muslim regions of the world increased by 25 percent between 2005 and 2010.
Statistics provided by research group Euromonitor International reported a constant increase in the use of alcohol in several countries where the Muslim religion, which prohibits the use of any product capable of affecting behaviour (drugs included), is dominant. Quoting the survey, Le Monde reported that between 2005 and 2010 the average consumption by the French dropped from 104.2 litres of alcohol per year to 96.7, while in the same period in the Middle East and Africa area it increased by 25%, from 11.7 billion litres to 15.2 billion.[2]
February 2011
“The Gulf is an important market for us to continue growing,” said Jane Ewing, Diageo’s general manager for the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region. The London-based maker of Johnnie Walker whisky and Smirnoff vodka posted a 16 per cent rise in regional net sales last year [2010] and expects sales to double in the next five years in the MENA region. The Gulf Arab region alone accounted for 44 per cent of Diageo’s total sales in MENA, with the United Arab Emirates and Lebanon being its two largest markets.[3]
March 2011
According to the study [cited by the Alriyadyh Arabic language daily], Arab countries spend more than $10 billion on Viagra and other anti-impotence medicines every year and that Saudi Arabia [ranked sixth largest consumer of sex drugs] alone spends over $1.5 billion [10 times more than Russia although the population in Russia is more than 10 times the Saudis]. It is followed by Egypt and the UAE, which spend about $one billion and $500 million respectively.[4]
March 2012
2012 study finds alcohol consumption has nearly doubled in the Muslim world between 2001 and 2011, and the rise in alcohol-sales is “unlikely to be accounted for by non-Muslims and foreigners alone.” In fact, Muslims have played a “direct” role in the rise of alcohol consumption, and drinking alcohol is “becoming a common part of many lives in the Islamic world.”