[News] Cammalleri has NOT been traded. Upd: Cammalleri likely heading to free agency

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Cammalleri is a pending UFA. Holding his rights at this point is like holding an option in the futures market... He has an expiry date. The leverage is not in the sellers court when your product is about to expire, the leverage is heavily weighed towards the buyer(s). What the buyers are willing to pay in this case ultimately determines his value.

If the seller is not willing to accept the offer then you have not established value. If Burke decided that keeping Cammy for the rest of the year, having an increased chance at re-signing him and/or setting a tone for future trades is worth more than he was being offered then the offer was below value.

That being said, for all we know they might have had a deal but were was beat by the clock due to other players not moving fast enough.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Jacks

If the seller is not willing to accept the offer then you have not established value. If Burke decided that keeping Cammy for the rest of the year, having an increased chance at re-signing him and/or setting a tone for future trades is worth more than he was being offered then the offer was below value.

That being said, for all we know they might have had a deal but were was beat by the clock due to other players not moving fast enough.

It's likely that more than anything. I don't think GM's are "wising up" its that all the cards were held in Snow's hands, and teams weren't willing to fold to Snow's demands. (Partially also due to limited cap room) By holding off, everyone was sitting on the sidelines, as all the buyers wanted to see where Vanek/Moulson go, and not wanting to burn up their cap room too soon (see: Anahaim shipping off Penner). Cap room was king this trade deadline, as most teams had to eat contract to milk a few mid round picks (see: Edmonton)

Burke, after spending the first half of the season getting, doing his DD on the team and finding out there wasn't a lot of respect for the Flames, saw an importance to turn the Flames reputation around and not get bullied (see: Regehr, Iginla, Bouw). For the days leading up to today, the deadline, Burke said over and over again that the market was being held up by a few players -Vanek/Moulson, and there just was no interest for Cammalleri. Some teams gave up early and went with plan B (LA/Gaborik, Ottawa/Hemsky) but even then the seller had to eat salary to make it work. Buyers pinched sellers to the deadline and Vanek and Moulson went for cents on the dollar... NYI/Buffalo both folded. Calgary was pinched off too, but did not fold like a cheap tent... Calgary called their bluff. Do I think Burke was working on a deal up to the last second? You bet..... Anahaim HAD to do something. You don't just ship off Penner for a 4th for no reason, they wanted to add a game breaker. At the same time, Burke said he was working on a 3 way deal that would see them eat salary, you have to think it was Anahaim. Burke said time ran out, which coincides with the timeline of Vanek/Moulson, i.e. a team was ready to give Burke what he wanted, but they just ran out of time. I bet that team was Anahaim... of coarse, all of this is my own personal speculation anyways.

Do I blame Burke for pushing to the last second but running out of time? Not really... kind of sucks but I get it. It wasn't spitting on someone else's offer or anything, its relying on his experience, he set out on a game plan and carried it through. To him, it was the risk of getting fair return at the risk of getting nothing, or he could do what Feaster does and take mediocre return; he took the former, and I respect that. Some don't which is fine, others can speculate that he was too arrogant and thats fine too.

[The Original FFIV]

After a very deep breath and return to rational thinking, I wonder if this outcome will indeed increase Burke's chances of signing Cammy.

I'm sure Burke and Cammy/his agent have kept in close contact regarding the deadline, and if Cammy was aware of the process, he can now see that the Flames value him as a player more than the rest of the league does. Burke can now go to Cammy and say, hey, we tried to move you but there was limited interest. So Cammy can go ahead and test the market but knowing that teams weren't pounding down Burke's door to acquire him, this might incline him to stay with an organization that values his contributions instead of testing the market and come away disappointed with limited interest in his services/lesser deal.

Just a theory and maybe nothing to it, but I guess we will see how contract extension talks go.

[868904]

So many posters on here keep saying that Burke should have settled for a 2nd rounder. What makes you think that was even being offered?

Vanek, Moulson, Legwand got only a little more than a 2nd round pick and Hemsky could only garner a 3rd and a 5th with salary retained.

Based on the market comparables, it's most likely that all that was offered was a 3rd at best and maybe even as low as a 4th.

[FAN]

The problem is Cammy hasn't signed yet. I suppose Burke calculated that there is a good chance Cammy would take his offer. Otherwise, I would say that Burke should have taken any draft pick for him.

[driveway]

Now I'm hoping we sign him for 2 years, for 4.5/year.

[formulate]

Unfortunate that so many other wingers were also on the market (Vanek, Moulson, Hemsky, Stempniak, Gaborik, Erat). Probably didn't help that Cammalleri has had injury and performance issues this season.

These reasons also lead me to believe that it could be mutually beneficial for Cammy to sign a 1-year, big money (6+ million?) deal. If him and his agent don't think a team will bite on a longer term deal for that kind of money, it might make sense for Cammy to stay for another year where he is guaranteed showcase minutes. Risky, yes, but could pay off big time if money is his primary agenda. And of course, this would give the Flames another opportunity to trade him (salary retained) at the deadline, in hopefully a better market and draft year.

If Mike just wants to play for a contender? Well, maybe they can still get a 3rd or 4th round pick for his rights. Not the end of the world, and the surprise 2nd rounder from trading Berra is nice. Maybe it can be packaged with our 2nd to get an early 20s first round pick.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by FAN

The problem is Cammy hasn't signed yet. I suppose Burke calculated that there is a good chance Cammy would take his offer. Otherwise, I would say that Burke should have taken any draft pick for him.

Absolutely disagree.
This is not a garage sale.
You make a statement to your players and the league. That they have value.that you won't be bullied.
I wish he had been moved... but not at any price.

[FlamesAddiction]

I do wonder if it is absolutely necessary to have a hard 3pm EST deadline for trades though. Maybe they should have a system where the deadline is extended 3 minutes past the time of the last trade for situations like this. I still couldn't see it going on another hour.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I do wonder if it is absolutely necessary to have a hard 3pm EST deadline for trades though. Maybe they should have a system where the deadline is extended 3 minutes past the time of the last trade for situations like this. I still couldn't see it going on another hour.

I don't think it would have mattered as Snow would have simply held out that extended 3 minutes. You can argue if Burke should have just accepted any lowball offer prior to 1:00 but he pretty well came out and admitted that the Vanek and Moulson situation made it extremely difficult seeing the Cammalleri suitors were waiting for those dominos to fall and seeing they fell in the last minutes there simply wasn't enough time left to get a deal done. Usually the big ticket guys don't go until the last minute but this year it did and being 3rd in pecking order hurt the Flames.

Burke isn't going to come out and say Snow is an idiot but I imagine he probably feels that way given how he held everyone hostage and then accepted almost the same deal Berra fetched for a player he earlier in the season gave up considerable assets for.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I do wonder if it is absolutely necessary to have a hard 3pm EST deadline for trades though. Maybe they should have a system where the deadline is extended 3 minutes past the time of the last trade for situations like this. I still couldn't see it going on another hour.

A deadline's a deadline meaning that if you extend the deadline another 3 minutes then everyone will treat 3:03 as the new deadline. Basically that's the nature of deadlines.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

Absolutely disagree.
This is not a garage sale.
You make a statement to your players and the league. That they have value.that you won't be bullied.
I wish he had been moved... but not at any price.

I don't buy this logic at all. I've seen it repeated by lots of posters in the last couple days, but someone is going to have to convince me that there is any value in this kind of posturing.

The fact is, in my eyes the value of Cammalleri to the Flames right now is zero. Taking anything would be a good transaction for the Flames. I don't see how holding out for more than whatever was offered is worth anything in future trade negotiations. If anything it will make people think we are overvaluing our rentals and won't bother next time.

Maybe as someone running an nhl franchise, they do see some value in having decent nhl players on the ice to play in front of the fans that are still paying $100 a game. Maybe that is worth not taking a 3rd rounder if that was all that was on the table.

I don't buy that holding out in any way helps our negotiating stance in the future. I don't buy that it was in any way worthwhile to hold on to him in case he re-signs. Sign him before the deadline, or give up on it.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I don't buy this logic at all. I've seen it repeated by lots of posters in the last couple days, but someone is going to have to convince me that there is any value in this kind of posturing.

The fact is, in my eyes the value of Cammalleri to the Flames right now is zero. Taking anything would be a good transaction for the Flames. I don't see how holding out for more than whatever was offered is worth anything in future trade negotiations. If anything it will make people think we are overvaluing our rentals and won't bother next time.

You don't think teams would bring lesser offers to the Flames if Feaster is running the show versus Burke?

I don't know if Buffalo would have even made the Butler/Byron for Regehr/2nd offer if Burke was around. Even in football/hockey pools when you're looking to make a deal you evaluate who you are dealing with before making an offer. For example if I had Kevin Westgarth I'd offer him up to Burke but if I had Tyler Ennis I'd offer him to Feaster.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

A deadline's a deadline meaning that if you extend the deadline another 3 minutes then everyone will treat 3:03 as the new deadline. Basically that's the nature of deadlines.

But then they are putting a lot of faith in there actually being a last minute deal to extend the deadline. A GM couldn't just assume that there would be a 2:59:59 (or subsequent 3:02:59) deal to extend the deadline. There would still have to be an urgency to get it done. Three minutes isn't a lot of time to negotiate. For it to work, the post 3pm deal would have had to have been worked out already pending another deal happening first.

Neither system would be perfect though, I agree.

(It's the same system some online auctions use to avoid last minute bids without giving others a chance to respond).

[edn88]

I think that there would have been full scale revolt if Burke only got a 3/4 for Squid.

I think if we can resign him at a reasonable price for next year - great. I like him in a Flames uni. But if he walks next year, that is fine.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You don't think teams would bring lesser offers to the Flames if Feaster is running the show versus Burke?

I don't know if Buffalo would have even made the Butler/Byron for Regehr/2nd offer if Burke was around. Even in football/hockey pools when you're looking to make a deal you evaluate who you are dealing with before making an offer. For example if I had Kevin Westgarth I'd offer him up to Burke but if I had Tyler Ennis I'd offer him to Feaster.

Yep, every other GM will think we're "Big Brian's Bargain Basement of Used Players" if we just give in to any offer. They'll assume that they can just wait him out and get a lowball deal.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by edn88

I think that there would have been full scale revolt if Burke only got a 3/4 for Squid.

I think if we can resign him at a reasonable price for next year - great. I like him in a Flames uni. But if he walks next year, that is fine.

So you wouldn't like another Kanzig or Gillies or Gaudreau or Ramage or Arnold in the system, rather than nothing? That mentality is exactly why our system was total garbage before Feaster took over. Sutter gave away too many picks and sat on too many players rather than keep the picks and prospects rolling into the system. An asset is an asset and without them you have nothing to build with.

This whole Burke-respected-hard-negotiator narrative is weak. If this is his mindset Burke is more concerned about his ego than the future of the Calgary Flames. The Flames need assets to make deals and keep the system stocked. Burke elected to give up an asset, a draft pick, for 20 games of Mike Cammalleri. I don't see that as being a shrewd negotiator. I see that as a short sighted decision that hurt the organization.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Cammalleri is a pending UFA. Holding his rights at this point is like holding an option in the futures market... He has an expiry date. The leverage is not in the sellers court when your product is about to expire, the leverage is heavily weighed towards the buyer(s). What the buyers are willing to pay in this case ultimately determines his value.

In the case of Bouwmeester last trade deadline, you're right, because he was still under contract for a year and the tension for change wasn't there on our end. We had leverage. Cammalleri today? We had no leverage... The buyers determined his value. That's the whole reason why Burke tried to manufacture leverage in claiming he was going to re-sign him versus trade.

Now you're trying to move the goalposts. I get your options metaphor but it doesn't really apply.

More importantly, the fact remains that value is not determined solely by the buyer - just as it is not determined by the seller.

MOST importantly is the big picture: this is not a trade in a vacuum. The Flames have to continue to trade with the same people in the future.

As a trader, sometimes it is better to lose a battle, and you have to be prepared to do so, in order to be in a stronger position later.

It is like bluffing in poker - if you are afraid to lose, and can get chased out of a hand, your ability to bluff - and thus your ability to be successful - is lost.

[Matty81]

Agree with those saying Burke's comments on reputation are full of crap. There is no logic or proof to it.

You could just as easily claim something like this will give the team the reputation of being hard to deal with and reduce teams that come around next trade deadline for example. It's grasping at straws to rationalize a dumb move.

Even a 4th would have been better than losing him for nothing and clogging up a roster spot a young guy should be trialling in for the last 20.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by New Era

So you wouldn't like another Kanzig or Gillies or Gaudreau or Ramage or Arnold in the system, rather than nothing? That mentality is exactly why our system was total garbage before Feaster took over. Sutter gave away too many picks and sat on too many players rather than keep the picks and prospects rolling into the system. An asset is an asset and without them you have nothing to build with.

This whole Burke-respected-hard-negotiator narrative is weak. If this is his mindset Burke is more concerned about his ego than the future of the Calgary Flames. The Flames need assets to make deals and keep the system stocked. Burke elected to give up an asset, a draft pick, for 20 games of Mike Cammalleri. I don't see that as being a shrewd negotiator. I see that as a short sighted decision that hurt the organization.

It's not weak at all (ironic choice of words). Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Also, it is not a certainty that they will get nothing for him. If so, that's the way it goes. But we don't know that that is the case at this point.