Rumble in the Caledonia Jungle.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Gee I don't know, maybe in the previous sentence? This one: Give them a lump sum and be done with it.

Doesn't that sound like a violation of a treaty? It sure does to me. Your whole idea is a fundamental violation of a treaty. Don't you see that? Obviously not.

As for the oil and gas revenues, what the hell are you whining about? Any oil and gas revenues natives get they are legally entitled to but there you are complaining that "we" give it to them. Who is this "we", btw? Oil and gas revenues are just that -- oil and gas revenues. Where do "we" come into the transaction? It's not tax dollars, it's oil and gas revenues. So unless you think "we" should get the revenues from "their" land, you and I aren't giving them a goddamn thing when it comes to oil and gas so what are you complaining about? Does the government even give natives "oil and gas revenues"?

Dont put words in my mouth. I did not say anywhere that we need to arbirarely do this. A deal can be worked out between the natives and the government. Besides this was a off the cuff suggestion. I know it would never work but because I made a suggestion that would also benifit every Canadian not just Natives you lefties had to go get your panties in a knot.

Geeeshh

[moon]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Is this still satire? Or have you crossed to racist yet?

You yourself posted that they are concerned that they might have another incindent involving natives and that the presence of known violent natives there ia a factor in why the OPP is hesitant to take actions against these criminals.

So is it really that racist to say that the fact that they are natives is why not a lot has been done against them?

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I'm not sure where anyone says it is OK for them to do this.

I think it is more a worry that if the OPP take action, another Dudly George/Ipperwash or Akwesasne type of incident will occur. Especially with, as Loob Job mentions, more of the violent first nations community joining the trouble.

Vulcan did, many times, earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

This isn't about "whore-tats". This is about land that was supposedly swindled from them and they would like it back. If your home was stolen from you, you might protest a little strongly also. This has gone on for 200 years because the law never respected native rights. This seems to be the only way for the natives to receive their rights before the land becomes a housing development.

And later ...

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well when the law never respected the natves for 200 years how can you expect the natives to respect the law. Have you never heard the expression, 'the law is an ass'. I think it was Jesus who said 'the law was made for man, not man is made for the law', when discussing breaking the Sabath..

I'm not saying that you, or anyone else is saying these things. Vulcan did, though. I do think it is an issue worth debating. Why IS this somehow acceptable because natives are doing it?

In forming opinions on matters like this, I find it important to look at what is being done rather than who it is being done by. Double standards are never good things. Of course, I'm open to honest debate on the matter if anyone feels differently.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by moon

You yourself posted that they are concerned that they might have another incindent involving natives and that the presence of known violent natives there ia a factor in why the OPP is hesitant to take actions against these criminals.

So is it really that racist to say that the fact that they are natives is why not a lot has been done against them?

He said it in another thread (where it did sound racist), reposted it in this thread and said it was 'satire'.

Then has says once again "because they are native". Sounds like a pretty blanket racist statement to me.

I believe the exact same things would have occurred if it was a Trade union dispute. Recall how the RCMP handled the meatpacking strike in Brooks? Crap happened on the line, and you don't take action until people have calmed down.

This incident has a bit more cooling off before any charges can (and should) be laid.

Edit: I'm not sure if that answers you Antithesis? I think that charges should be laid (indeed, I think the native protesters are in the wrong), but I think going into the Six Nations and trying to find and charge the individuals who did it would be like kicking a hornet's nets right now.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well when the law never respected the natves for 200 years how can you expect the natives to respect the law. Have you never heard the expression, 'the law is an ass'. I think it was Jesus who said 'the law was made for man, not man is made for the law', when discussing breaking the Sabath..

If you are comparing Jesus to the "natives" (in quotes because that is what you referred to them as and I dont know the PC verbage) then we have a serious problem.

The road wasnt the first thing, they hijacked a housing development. No where have I heard that the road, supposedly the primary artery for these people into the town was part of the land claims, the housing, if it was then I dont have a problem with that.

Also saying that my fake whore-tate protest is any more or less unjust/warranted - a protest is a protest is a protest, whether it be seal burgers, land claims, abortion, animal cruelty (I of course wouldnt waste my time on that protest as I just dont care enough).

My big thing is why is this allowed. Cops are cops, especially if its on public (non native land).

MYK

[mykalberta]

Also, after reading a few pages the discussion is getting close to what I would consider over the line and lockable. Please keep this not about "natives" but about the situation. Back-story or not they are on public propert and the cops seem to be acting like a bunch of useless a$$es.

Here is some backstory to where my thinking is coming from on this and other "land-claim" issues.

I guess from my standpoint (not sure if this is racist or not). My parents live about 60 minutes outside of Edmonton, to get there I regularily drive through Hobema (one of what I thought was the richest reserves in Canada - oil etc - 10 years ago they had new housing, they have a 5 year old high school (pink and everything)). I know that people complain about water and health quality in reserves, but over the many years of driving through there, you tend to notice little things like housing conditions, lawns, etc. Things that would be unacceptable in SunnySide (cars on cement blocks, unkept lawns for what look like months on end) seem to be acceptable there.

Now I dont know the culture of why that may be and if that is the culture then so be it, but when I hear about sub standard water and health conditions and protests of blockading roads (I know if some mofo blocked memorial in protest of whatever - I would tend to think screw you and drive right through), I always think back to Hobema where I am sure at one point they had nice homes and nice lawns and within no less then 10 years it has deteriorated to what I would consider unliveable. And then I hear about blockades and the rest and I am sorry if this offends anyone but I tend to say to myself, well what did I expect.

I guess this raises another legit question,

The Quebec thing, Ipper-whatever, and now this. Why do yo never hear about his kind of stuff West of Ontario. Is there a different agreement in place, or what?

I have heard of similar things out West but it tends to be more hunting/fishing lands - but it never gets to this point. I wonder why this is - does anyone have any insight?

MYK

[Muta]

I say just give them their damn land, and stop the handouts which have been going on for years. Or, don't give them their damn land, and continue the handouts. Why do they need both?

And, this question in for loob job, but how much land are we talking about here? Are we talking an acre, or are we talking an entire plot of land?

[Bobblehead]

One thing I can think of as to why this doesn't seem to happen in the Prairie provinces is that the treaties were written up later than in the east/BC. The treaty in question dates back to the 1840's, approx 40 years before the treaties with the prairie tribes. I know one stumbling block on this treaty was that it was signed before Confederation, so the federal government, who is in charge of Indian Affairs, didn't exist. Perhaps the later treaties were better written, with experience of an additional 40 years and a better framework of laws? Perhaps the tribes themselves; prairie tribes were nomadic, whereas in the East & BC they stayed in the same general area and built longhouses.

In the Nolan thread in the main forum, Hunter74 mentioned that the Six Nations helped us in the war, and without them we may have lost. He is partially right. We would have lost without the help, but it isn't because they just decided to help the British - Tecumseh (a true hero) was trying to join all the native tribes together to fight the Americans who were pushing the natives out and slaughtering them in raids. It was more an 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' deal. But the British did abandon Tecumseh in the end ( due to poor leadership - Brock had already been killed), and in the Treaty of Ghent the British gave the US lands which they had promised the natives (most of what is now Michigan).

So in my rambling way, I don't know why the problems all seem to occur outside of the prairies, but there are definitely differences.

(and for info on Ipperwash)

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Dont put words in my mouth. I did not say anywhere that we need to arbirarely do this. A deal can be worked out between the natives and the government. Besides this was a off the cuff suggestion. I know it would never work but because I made a suggestion that would also benifit every Canadian not just Natives you lefties had to go get your panties in a knot.

Geeeshh

I didn't have to put words in your mouth.

is give every single one of them 1 million dollars and cancel any future claims to rights land or what ever and get rid of the reservation system

Nowhere in there do you mention making a deal or negotiating. Give them money and cancel any rights to anything else --that is all you said.

I can perfectly understand why you are trying to back off this ridiculous idea of yours, but don't whine when someone points out how silly it was.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Edit: I'm not sure if that answers you Antithesis? I think that charges should be laid (indeed, I think the native protesters are in the wrong), but I think going into the Six Nations and trying to find and charge the individuals who did it would be like kicking a hornet's nets right now.

I agree wholeheartedly. Now is not the best time. The best time (I'm sure you'd agree given your other statements) was when this was all going down.

Doing nothing while it was happening sets a dangerous precedent. It makes it seem as if the behavior is either acceptable or not worth disciplining. This in turn makes it more difficult to discipline after the fact (in this case) or in the future.

I'd be really interested in hearing what Vulcan has to say on all of this - not in an "I'd like to rub your idiocy in your face" internet-type of way but more in terms of his actual thoughts on the matter.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

My big thing is why is this allowed. Cops are cops, especially if its on public (non native land).

Why don't cops give everyone a ticket for going 111 on the highway? Why don't they round up every single pedestrian on 17th who might be over the legal limit? Breaking the speed limit and being drunk in public are against the law. I guess things just aren't so black and white.

Apparently the OPP figured that keeping this a low-key demonstration as opposed to a riot or an armed standoff was probably the best course of action. Since it came to a peaceful conclusion yesterday I'd say they did the right thing.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Why don't cops give everyone a ticket for going 111 on the highway? Why don't they round up every single pedestrian on 17th who might be over the legal limit? Breaking the speed limit and being drunk in public are against the law. I guess things just aren't so black and white.

Apparently the OPP figured that keeping this a low-key demonstration as opposed to a riot or an armed standoff was probably the best course of action. Since it came to a peaceful conclusion yesterday I'd say they did the right thing.

I'm not saying this to be facetious in the least, but don't you think what happened in Caledonia and your examples are on different levels?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I'm not saying this to be facetious in the least, but don't you think what happened in Caledonia and your examples are on different levels?

Of course they are on different levels, but the point is that enforcement of the law isn't quite as cut and dried as some posters are suggesting. "They are cops so they should be arresting those people" is far too simplistic and it just doesn't work that way. A person who breaks the law isn't automatically arrested, fined, clubbed, shot, whatever.

You mention "dangerous precedent" in another post. I think the "dangerous precedent" had already been set and it didn't work then and people ended up dead. This one ended up with a handshake. Which way is better?

[chris lindberg]

[Tecumseh (a true hero) was trying to join all the native tribes together to fight the Americans who were pushing the natives out and slaughtering them in raids. It was more an 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' deal. But the British did abandon Tecumseh in the end ( due to poor leadership - Brock had already been killed), and in the Treaty of Ghent the British gave the US lands which they had promised the natives (most of what is now Michigan).

Yes, it was supposed to be like the Natives own personal country or province within Canada for themselves, a nice idea but it would have been taken away in time from them in the end i believe, just can't see all the settlers bypassing the whole state of Michigan.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Is this still satire? Or have you crossed to racist yet?

What, it's just the coles notes of what you said yourself. They are doing it and the police haven't stopped them simply because they are natives.

That's the truth.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by moon

You yourself posted that they are concerned that they might have another incindent involving natives and that the presence of known violent natives there ia a factor in why the OPP is hesitant to take actions against these criminals.

So is it really that racist to say that the fact that they are natives is why not a lot has been done against them?

Exactly!

Thank you!!!

[White Doors]

I personally know alot of natives and alot of them get really upset about this and Oka etc. it gives them a bad image. In Caledonia, the supreme court has ruled on it and said it was not native land at this housing development. Why can't they respect rulings that are against them as well?
Another thing, The supreme court ruled that verbal, oral traditions handed down over generations had just as much of a legal standing as written land treaties. yes - you heard this correctly. And we wonder why we have these issues.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

The best time (I'm sure you'd agree given your other statements) was when this was all going down.

That's what started the blockade!
The OPP tried to remove the group who was occupying the site, and that obviously didn't work and resulted in the blockade.

Unless the police were prepared to go in with riot gear, there isn't much they could do "when it was all going down". They may have been able to grab a few protesters, but then any future credibility would have been shot and the standoff would have lasted even longer.

Unless you are condoning violent action taken against the protesters. You aren't, are you?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

What, it's just the coles notes of what you said yourself. They are doing it and the police haven't stopped them simply because they are natives.

That's the truth.

Oh for sure. The natives get all the breaks from the police. The cops always let the natives get away with anything they want. In some parts of Saskatchewan, for example, some native guys they arrest aren't taken to jail but instead are allowed to walk off into some field.

[White Doors]

Read into it what you want, what I said is the truth.