Vote swapping deal to deny Virtue/Moir gold?

[craigwd]

It's pretty ridiculous how the media keeps bringing this up and how non-skating people keep propagating it.

1. Under the Code of Points system it is impossible for one person to significantly affect the results of a competition. Plus all judges marks are scrutinized and posted for each element.

2. The judges aren't the same for each event.

3. It was generally believed that Russia was favoured in the team event anyway.

4. Over the past year it's been a given that Davis and White have been better than Virtue and Moir as they have been able to achieve consistently top levels for all elements whereas V/M struggled early on. V/M also had problems with deductions earlier on.

5. It's always been noted that V/M have more artistic and risky dances which don't always translate into points. D/W are heavily technical and usually similar.

For example last year's Hunchback program for D/W was often panned for being unrelated to the actual dance but was still skated to near perfection. V/M's Carmen was risky and visually appealing but did not always contain the top elements.

Code of Points eliminated event fixing.

[CaptainCrunch]

I would feel sorry for the athletes that train so hard. But judged sports like figure skating should have no part in the Olympics.

If there's no way to win it outright by besting your opponent it leaves things too wide open to corruption.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would feel sorry for the athletes that train so hard. But judged sports like figure skating should have no part in the Olympics.

If there's no way to win it outright by besting your opponent it leaves things too wide open to corruption.

I will be honest -comments like this really drive me crazy. Maybe it's because I was involved in a judged sport for most of my life but I don't think it's fair. People who watch these sports once every four years feel the need to downplay it because they don't understand how the judging/sport works.

If you follow the sport regularly it's quite easy to see a better performance vs a worse one. Although there is subjectivity in it, people who follow the sport can usually peg the score very close to the judges - which to me says that in the subjectivity there is consistency.

I think it's kind of disrespectful to these athletes to disregard their sport because of a perceived impression of judging.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by FFR

I will be honest -comments like this really drive me crazy. Maybe it's because I was involved in a judged sport for most of my life but I don't think it's fair. People who watch these sports once every four years feel the need to downplay it because they don't understand how the judging/sport works.

If you follow the sport regularly it's quite easy to see a better performance vs a worse one. Although there is subjectivity in it, people who follow the sport can usually peg the score very close to the judges - which to me says that in the subjectivity there is consistency.

I think it's kind of disrespectful to these athletes to disregard their sport because of a perceived impression of judging.

I'll take it a step further and say it is very disrespectful to the athletes and judges themselves who, I would say 99.999%, are clean and do everything they can to ensure fair competition. Furthermore, I'm not just talking figure skating, I'm referring to all sports that are refereed and judged.

Also, as someone who has been following and involved in a range of amateur sport over the past 15+ years I find it very frustrating to hear people who suddenly become critical of an athlete's performance or the sport itself because they suddenly decide to watch every 4 years. The athletes compete every single winter (or summer) and if people would actually take the time to learn the sport they would be better able to understand what is going on.

Getting back to figure skating, it's really not difficult to understand what is going on. One doesn't have to know the difference between a Lutz and Salchow to see the difference between a quad and a triple for example. So instead of blinding criticizing, take the time to learn.

[BloodFetish]

But what does Ashley Wagner think?


(Swear)

NSFW!

[Hockeyguy15]

So far I would say this "report" should be a non-issue. I don't know anything about figure skating but the American pairs clearly skated better than Moir and Virtue both times so far.

Unless Moir and Virtue step their game up, the American's will walk away with gold.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by FFR

If you follow the sport regularly it's quite easy to see a better performance vs a worse one. Although there is subjectivity in it, people who follow the sport can usually peg the score very close to the judges - which to me says that in the subjectivity there is consistency.

Except, apparently, in slopestyle.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Except, apparently, in slopestyle.

I've never seen slopestyle before so I can't comment on the consistency of the judging specifically. But from listening to the commentators it sounded like the judges at the Olympics are not the same as the ones at the x-games and may have been judging differently (looking for different things). This certainly highlights the potential problems with subjective judging - but most sports have only one judging group who are all trained the same - seems rather ridiculous to have a new group of judges for the Olympics when the athletes have had the same group of judges for the rest of their competitions.

I think this just highlights the issues of a new sport - which all new events have (in one way or another).

[polak]

Pretty much every sport has officials that could influence the outcome of an event.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by FFR

I've never seen slopestyle before so I can't comment on the consistency of the judging specifically. But from listening to the commentators it sounded like the judges at the Olympics are not the same as the ones at the x-games and may have been judging differently (looking for different things). This certainly highlights the potential problems with subjective judging - but most sports have only one judging group who are all trained the same - seems rather ridiculous to have a new group of judges for the Olympics when the athletes have had the same group of judges for the rest of their competitions.

I think this just highlights the issues of a new sport - which all new events have (in one way or another).

What I noticed is that Canada looks to have a large contingent of the top skiers yet didn't have a judge in any of the competitions. Seems odd.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by polak

Pretty much every sport has officials that could influence the outcome of an event.

There are some that don't.

[Locke]

Thus far I'm surprised that no one has been decapitated at centre ice to set an example.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by FFR

I will be honest -comments like this really drive me crazy. Maybe it's because I was involved in a judged sport for most of my life but I don't think it's fair. People who watch these sports once every four years feel the need to downplay it because they don't understand how the judging/sport works.

If you follow the sport regularly it's quite easy to see a better performance vs a worse one. Although there is subjectivity in it, people who follow the sport can usually peg the score very close to the judges - which to me says that in the subjectivity there is consistency.

I think it's kind of disrespectful to these athletes to disregard their sport because of a perceived impression of judging.

Can you though? I hear this argument and it makes sense, but then I see that even judging has ruined what should be an obvious sport in ski jumping. I don't know all the ins and outs of the sport, and like most people I become an expert watching it once every four years or so. It seems obvious though...come down the ramp and whoever goes the furthest wins, right? Have a look down the results from a couple days ago:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/winter-olympics/25830854

Its just not sensible. I'm sure that a ski jumping purist would be able to rationalize this, but honestly how do people jump further and finish out of the medals? Does it really matter what the style points are? We don't have the garbage in things like high jump or long jump, so why here? To me, and my completely amateur uninformed opinion, judging just makes the results murky and potentially questionable. In a day and age where medals are worth millions of dollars they shouldn't be handed out based on obviously subjective measures.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Slava

Can you though? I hear this argument and it makes sense, but then I see that even judging has ruined what should be an obvious sport in ski jumping. I don't know all the ins and outs of the sport, and like most people I become an expert watching it once every four years or so. It seems obvious though...come down the ramp and whoever goes the furthest wins, right? Have a look down the results from a couple days ago:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/winter-olympics/25830854

Its just not sensible. I'm sure that a ski jumping purist would be able to rationalize this, but honestly how do people jump further and finish out of the medals? Does it really matter what the style points are? We don't have the garbage in things like high jump or long jump, so why here? To me, and my completely amateur uninformed opinion, judging just makes the results murky and potentially questionable. In a day and age where medals are worth millions of dollars they shouldn't be handed out based on obviously subjective measures.

I 100% agree with this and don't understand why ski jumpers are judged. Could you imagine Dick Fosbury finishing out of the medals in High Jump because he jumped backwards?

[FFR]

Originally Posted by Slava

Can you though? I hear this argument and it makes sense, but then I see that even judging has ruined what should be an obvious sport in ski jumping. I don't know all the ins and outs of the sport, and like most people I become an expert watching it once every four years or so. It seems obvious though...come down the ramp and whoever goes the furthest wins, right? Have a look down the results from a couple days ago:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/winter-olympics/25830854

Its just not sensible. I'm sure that a ski jumping purist would be able to rationalize this, but honestly how do people jump further and finish out of the medals? Does it really matter what the style points are? We don't have the garbage in things like high jump or long jump, so why here? To me, and my completely amateur uninformed opinion, judging just makes the results murky and potentially questionable. In a day and age where medals are worth millions of dollars they shouldn't be handed out based on obviously subjective measures.

So.... because you don't agree with the fact that ski jumping is judged... it shouldn't be? Because you don't understand the judging system, the sport shouldn't be judged? Ski jumping isn't all about who jumps the farthest - that's what they've decided in their sport so who am I (or you) to say it's wrong.

As for asking about estimating scores - I certainly can't in ski jumping, or slopestyle... But I can in figure skating, and diving and aerial skiing (though I'm not nearly as consistent with aerial skiing as I just starting following it). I follow these sports regularly - not just every four years - and I know how the judging system works. There is (and can be) consistency in subjectivity.

But really, your post just further's my point... people who are all of a sudden "experts" show up every four years to throw down their opinion that the judging is "rigged" or "biased" or whatever else they want to say - with no idea how the sport works or how the judging works.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

I 100% agree with this and don't understand why ski jumpers are judged. Could you imagine Dick Fosbury finishing out of the medals in High Jump because he jumped backwards?

Well - if the rules stated you had to go a certain way and that points were awarded for following a specific style - he wouldn't have jumped the way he did. That's kind of a ridiculous comment. These athletes know what the rules are - better than you or me. They know exactly how to score high as they've been doing it their whole lives. If the athletes thought it was a farce to judge the event - they wouldn't be in it.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by Slava

Can you though? I hear this argument and it makes sense, but then I see that even judging has ruined what should be an obvious sport in ski jumping. I don't know all the ins and outs of the sport, and like most people I become an expert watching it once every four years or so. It seems obvious though...come down the ramp and whoever goes the furthest wins, right? Have a look down the results from a couple days ago:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/winter-olympics/25830854

Its just not sensible. I'm sure that a ski jumping purist would be able to rationalize this, but honestly how do people jump further and finish out of the medals? Does it really matter what the style points are? We don't have the garbage in things like high jump or long jump, so why here? To me, and my completely amateur uninformed opinion, judging just makes the results murky and potentially questionable. In a day and age where medals are worth millions of dollars they shouldn't be handed out based on obviously subjective measures.

There you have it. You really can't declare a sport you watch for 15 minutes, "garbage". The same as I can't watch a Flames game for a period and understand the game.

Again, before criticizing something I still say one should try to learn more about it.

Obviously jumping the farthest counts for the most points but not every jump is the same. Points aren't just awarded for style but to also correct for wind, ramp position and proper technique. The points ensure an even playing field. You still notice on the list, the guy who jumped longer got the highest points. The also don't show the first jump so you argument is not valid.

Also, jumps aren't ranked to the centimeter. It's very difficult.

If you want to see people hurl themselves off a jump with little regard for style, safety or technique and more emphasis on distance I suggest checking out Flying Ski Jump, which is not an Olympic event because it requires different hills.

[bossy22]

Originally Posted by FFR

I've never seen slopestyle before so I can't comment on the consistency of the judging specifically. But from listening to the commentators it sounded like the judges at the Olympics are not the same as the ones at the x-games and may have been judging differently (looking for different things). This certainly highlights the potential problems with subjective judging - but most sports have only one judging group who are all trained the same - seems rather ridiculous to have a new group of judges for the Olympics when the athletes have had the same group of judges for the rest of their competitions.

I think this just highlights the issues of a new sport - which all new events have (in one way or another).

The issue (or non-issue) we had here was that the athletes who compete on the world tour and are never judged by FIS judges. They came in expecting what the x-games and dew tour want. Big jumps and progression, as it relates to those jumps. It was thought that the winner would have to do at minimum two triple corks, maybe three. McMorris did two, and was the only one in the final to do two in one run. When Staale saw how McMorris got scored, he changed his game plan and added more style. Sage, who has never won a gold on the world tour, just did what he does best. It's his thing to be the creative, out-there guy, and that is what the FIS judges wanted.
Maxence was last. He saw what was being judged, and he had the opportunity to change it up. He had the biggest trick, a triple cork 1620, but that was it.
If this were the x-games it could have been Canada 1-2, but it wasn't the x-games. Personally, this is one of the few times I've agreed with FIS. I liked that the rails were given some weight instead of just a lead up to the jumps.

[FFR]

Originally Posted by bossy22

The issue (or non-issue) we had here was that the athletes who compete on the world tour and are never judged by FIS judges. They came in expecting what the x-games and dew tour want. Big jumps and progression, as it relates to those jumps. It was thought that the winner would have to do at minimum two triple corks, maybe three. McMorris did two, and was the only one in the final to do two in one run. When Staale saw how McMorris got scored, he changed his game plan and added more style. Sage, who has never won a gold on the world tour, just did what he does best. It's his thing to be the creative, out-there guy, and that is what the FIS judges wanted.
Maxence was last. He saw what was being judged, and he had the opportunity to change it up. He had the biggest trick, a triple cork 1620, but that was it.
If this were the x-games it could have been Canada 1-2, but it wasn't the x-games. Personally, this is one of the few times I've agreed with FIS. I liked that the rails were given some weight instead of just a lead up to the jumps.

That was the impression I got from the TV coverage as well. That's an issue all of its own that the sport federation will have to address.

My comments above were more general regarding judged sports than for any sport specifically.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by FFR

So.... because you don't agree with the fact that ski jumping is judged... it shouldn't be? Because you don't understand the judging system, the sport shouldn't be judged? Ski jumping isn't all about who jumps the farthest - that's what they've decided in their sport so who am I (or you) to say it's wrong.

As for asking about estimating scores - I certainly can't in ski jumping, or slopestyle... But I can in figure skating, and diving and aerial skiing (though I'm not nearly as consistent with aerial skiing as I just starting following it). I follow these sports regularly - not just every four years - and I know how the judging system works. There is (and can be) consistency in subjectivity.

But really, your post just further's my point... people who are all of a sudden "experts" show up every four years to throw down their opinion that the judging is "rigged" or "biased" or whatever else they want to say - with no idea how the sport works or how the judging works.

Well the problem for figure skating in particular is that they've opened the door to this criticism on their own. It might be that I'm not an expert in these matters, but the fact is there have been a number of judging controversies in the recent past. Even this article to start the thread was brought about because an expert in the field says a deal has been made. In otherwords you might not like the armchair experts like me weighing in every four years, but the judges themselves say there is a problem!

Unfortunately all of these judged events come out that way. We've seen this with boxing at the olympics (which should be really easy to score....guy gets punched and the other gets a point, yet somehow the fighter from the country that controls the commission gets more points). Its happened in MMA and boxing at the pro-level as well with people being incensed that the "wrong" fighter was given a decision. Unfortunately its human nature.

I should note that doesn't take away from the athleticism or skill that these events take; I couldn't do what the athletes are doing. Its just that people cannot be completely objective and

Originally Posted by craigwd

There you have it. You really can't declare a sport you watch for 15 minutes, "garbage". The same as I can't watch a Flames game for a period and understand the game.

Again, before criticizing something I still say one should try to learn more about it.

Obviously jumping the farthest counts for the most points but not every jump is the same. Points aren't just awarded for style but to also correct for wind, ramp position and proper technique. The points ensure an even playing field.

Also, jumps aren't ranked to the centimeter. It's very difficult.

If you want to see people hurl themselves off a jump with little regard for style, safety or technique and more emphasis on distance I suggest checking out Flying Ski Jump, which is not an Olympic event because it requires different hills.

I laughed at this part. Have a look down the list. We're not talking about guys edging someone out within a margin of error. We're talking about guys jumping a couple of meters further, and that being measured and posted.

The idea of a Flames game isn't quite right either, because at the end of the game everyone knows who won. There is no one making a decision as to who they *think* won. You either scored more or you didn't. Same with sports like skiing, speed skating, etc. where you have actual measurements to determine a winner and not the potential of bias.