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Old 02-03-2014, 08:54 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
While I agree each part of our society should be the final judge on what insults them, I find that there are certain things in our society that make me cringe, even though I'm not directly involved.

Fair, but when the Blackhawks logo is one of the things Chicago gets credit for not being offensive by the Native American community, having dissentower bring it up as offensive just rings completely hollow and of white guilt.

You can say you don't like it, but you can't say "it's offensive to Native Americans" when the group you're speaking of have said it isn't offensive.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:00 PM   #422
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Fair, but when the Blackhawks logo is one of the things Chicago gets credit for not being offensive by the Native American community, having dissentower bring it up as offensive just rings completely hollow and of white guilt.

You can say you don't like it, but you can't say "it's offensive to Native Americans" when the group you're speaking of have said it isn't offensive.
White privilege at work.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:33 PM   #423
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If I (an asian girl) went to a Dallas Cowboys game dressed in full Western gear and painted my face a little whiter, isn't that just as bad as redfaced white people going to Indians games.
Not really the same thing at all. The issue here is essentially, when does a joke (which is what a caricature basicly is) become a problem.

For white Texans in Texas, a joke about white Texans is just a joke. (Possibly an offending one, but it's still just a joke.) As the ruling ethnic group in the area/country, the lives of Texans/white people are not constrained by their caricatures, as they themselves have the power to define their status in the society they live in. In short, you can't make a joke that actually hurts them.

This is really the same reason why a comedian can tell all the jokes about disabled people she wants of in front of a mostly disable audience, but those exact same jokes will get her in trouble in front of a more general audience. If the target of the joke is also the audience, they are essentially the group with the power in the situation. This makes the joke lose it's power, and it remains just a joke. If they are just the target of the joke, the joke becomes more than a joke, since it becomes potentially harmful.

It's really the same reason why friends can make terrible jokes about each other and laugh about it, but will get mad if an outsider makes the same joke about their friend.

Context is everything.

(Some textbook definitions of racism actually only include the views of the dominant ethnic group or groups, btw.)

Native Americans, who are a minority group with relatively little social pull, are not the audience of the "joke" or slur that is Redskins. They're just the target. To make things worse, that particular caricature props up the exact stereotype that is harmful to them. So naturally, some of them will care enough about this particular case to be upset about it. Not everyone will, because it's just one caricature among many. (Native Americans don't form a hivemind.)

Essentially, racism is not simply about race, it's about the power a group has over another group, and the ways they use it. The owners and supporters of the Redskins are using their power in the society to prop up a racist caricature, against a group of people that by themselves can't really do anything about it.

Which makes the USE of the name Redskins name racism in itself. (This is basicly why many newspapers have declined to use it. Journalists tend to get the power of words.)

I feel it's probably best to remind that most people would agree that some racism here or there is not a real problem in itself. Racism only becomes a problem when views against a certain group are held by people with so much combined influence over that group that it starts to significantly impact that groups life.

This is not what's going on with white Texans, but it is very much going on with native Americans. Which is why racism relating to them is more of a problem than racism relating to, for example, jews or the Irish, who are generally speaking doing fine in the US.

I think most would essentially agree, that yeah, the Redskins name is kind of racist. I believe the debate is really more about whether or not that particular bit of racism is a problem.

And I admit, there's no 100% sure way to say either way, unless you personally are offended by it.

If you don't suffer from racism yourself, it's hard to have any kind of an informed opinion on the topic. The really tricky part is, the people who suffer from racism pretty much by definition have very little power to do something about the racism. That's a dilemma.

The other people, us, are the ones with the power to actually influence things. But we can never be sure when is the right situation to do something. But we don't do anything, nothing happens to racism, and it's probably not going to go away by itself.

The way I see it, the only way to solve that dilemma is for people who don't suffer from racism to err on the side of doing things.

I know people love to bash political correctness, but sometimes it's actually a good idea.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:35 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Vulcan View Post
While I agree each part of our society should be the final judge on what insults them, I find that there are certain things in our society that make me cringe, even though I'm not directly involved.
Sure. But you're speaking for yourself, not for others in that case.
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:02 AM   #425
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WTF is that thing supposed to be?
I think its a logo for the "Washington Griffins"
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Old 02-04-2014, 09:15 AM   #426
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Sure. But you're speaking for yourself, not for others in that case.
Yeah well I can have an opinion but the thing is it's the natives themselves who have stated their objections.

I'm just saying that when I run across the Indian's logo, or the Braves fake chanting, drumming or hear the name of the Washington team, I cringe. It may be that it comes from my close relationship and some understanding of some natives or it may be that my senses just say that this is crap.
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Old 02-04-2014, 06:07 PM   #427
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Excellent post.

This post should be required reading for everyone involved in this discussion. Unfortunatley, those that need to understand it the most will make the least effort to try to understand it.
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Old 02-05-2014, 02:41 AM   #428
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http://www.thestarphoenix.com/School...570/story.html
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Old 02-05-2014, 11:06 AM   #429
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I know people love to bash political correctness, but sometimes it's actually a good idea.
I agree, but the key word has to be "sometimes". I'm not going to use any specific examples, but a lot of the time political correctness can be a complete joke. It seems like some people actually try to be offended by things that are not intended to offend (not talking about this Redskins discussion, I do understand that the name is offensive and it should probably be changed).
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Old 02-05-2014, 01:08 PM   #430
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Despite what side of the argument people fall on with this topic. I don't see in my lifetime any of the major North American sports teams changing their Native related name etc. Unless the leagues themselves such as MLB, NFL, NHL, pressured the owners to do so.
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:51 PM   #431
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Has this been posted?

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:05 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by GirlySports View Post
If I (an asian girl) went to a Dallas Cowboys game dressed in full Western gear and painted my face a little whiter, isn't that just as bad as redfaced white people going to Indians games. Or blackfaced people going to Raiders and Pirates games?

Mumbai Indians cricket team needs to look at this too :P
That is not the same at all.
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:08 PM   #433
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Interesting. It would seem there are a lot of school teams named the Redmen (including Calgary's own Western Canada)

"Redmen" name of less concern to Balfour students than S'toon counterparts

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As Saskatoon’s Public School Board debates whether it’s time to get rid of Bedford Road Collegiate’s team name, the “Redmen”, students at a Regina school with the same team name don’t seem too concerned about it.
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“I’m half Native and I don’t think it’s offensive personally,” said one student. “It’s just a team name.”

“I really don’t take that much concern,” said another student who identified himself as First Nations. “We’re all human beings in my eyes so there’s no difference with skin pigmentation.”
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:32 PM   #434
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Moose Jaw's 30th anniversary jersey next year. Pass... fail?



CBC's story is a fine example of terrible journalism. Introduce the jersey, then prominently feature a controversy that has nothing to do with Moose Jaw or the team, then make no effort to see what the reaction to this jersey is.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...rsey-1.2528236
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:06 PM   #435
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Moose Jaw's 30th anniversary jersey next year. Pass... fail?



CBC's story is a fine example of terrible journalism. Introduce the jersey, then prominently feature a controversy that has nothing to do with Moose Jaw or the team, then make no effort to see what the reaction to this jersey is.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskat...rsey-1.2528236
Seems to land on the Cleveland Indians side of the debate and not the Blackhawks/Braves
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:07 PM   #436
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Doesn't seem racist to me. Is that not what a warrior would have looked like? Its not like they made his skin red and his nose huge like some logos

I cant see the pic that well though. Is it supposed to be a skate? I really don't see how it is any worse than their current logo

Last edited by neo45; 02-11-2014 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:16 PM   #437
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I can see why there's a problem with Redskins. But I see nothing but pride in the Blackhawks' name and logo.
If we're going to go to lengths to change one team name, shouldn't every ethnic reference in sport or business be removed? Seems like the logical thing to me as opposed to saying A is ok but B is bad when its all a matter of someones point of view on the subject (outside of Redskins) when you get right down to it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:34 PM   #438
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If we're going to go to lengths to change one team name, shouldn't every ethnic reference in sport or business be removed? Seems like the logical thing to me as opposed to saying A is ok but B is bad when its all a matter of someones point of view on the subject (outside of Redskins) when you get right down to it.
How the hell does that seem logical to you? A washington Nfl team has a racist name so now everything First Nations is off limits?

Why stop at sports teams then, Calgary has no business naming roads Deerfoot or Crowchild
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:14 PM   #439
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I thought in like 97 or 98 Beford Road stopped using Redman because it was felt to be racist. Maybe they brought it back.

Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedford..._name_and_logo

Per wikipedia in 96 they had a student body vote who voted overwelmingly in fabour of keeping the name (This school has at least a 30% native population) and they consulted with Metis and Native elders who were okay with its use.

Last edited by GGG; 02-11-2014 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:33 PM   #440
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Good riddance, people are sensitive nowadays, everyone is so worried about being "correct"
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