We've demonstrate that we can compete with anyone in the league when we stick to our system that relies heavily on energy and work ethic. We've got a winning record vs the past 3 cup champs to prove it. What's holding us back most is our talent level. We have to work so hard to stay in games and did exceptionally well at it early on, but you can't keep up that effort level, hence the shutout streak. We need legitimate 1st liners that can put up the points.
That should 100% be his primary focus with our top 3 pick this draft, above all else. Elite skill is something we desperately need more of. He can go in the character and size direction with later picks, that's great. I don't care. Just don't flop on that 1st.
We've demonstrate that we can compete with anyone in the league when we stick to our system that relies heavily on energy and work ethic. We've got a winning record vs the past 3 cup champs to prove it. What's holding us back most is our talent level. We have to work so hard to stay in games and did exceptionally well at it early on, but you can't keep up that effort level, hence the shutout streak. We need legitimate 1st liners that can put up the points.
That should 100% be his primary focus with our top 3 pick this draft, above all else. Elite skill is something we desperately need more of. He can go in the character and size direction with later picks, that's great. I don't care. Just don't flop on that 1st.
He's never said he wants to draft unskilled big players. Obviously the ideal is size + skill + character and there should be several players with that combination at the top end of the draft. I don't see the problem with what he's said. There's nothing new to worry about now, some of you are reacting to this size thing as if it is new info.
Usually the GM's preference on what attributes he wants to emphasize will have more of an effect on mid-late round picks. If anything Burke's comments to them will have us downgrading a guy like William Nylander at the top end. And personally as soon as Burke was hired I didn't think we'd draft him. Personally I had zero interest in Nylander with Baertschi, Gaudreau and Hudler all in the system or on the team. Drafting a guy like Nylander with what we've already got would be like the Oilers taking Yakupov after already having RNH, Hall and Eberle. Nobody should want us to draft a small, skilled winger with our top pick this year.
The people thinking we're gonna pass on Reinhart and Bennett because they are average size are obviously overreacting, misreading the situation or misunderstanding Burke. Burke has drafted Kadri and Reilly in the top 10 who are no bigger than Reinhart/Bennett. And both Kadri and Reilly are high skill players who aren't necessarily truculent. So again those worrying we'll take a Biggs type player in the top 5 are jumping to conclusions and using completely backwards analysis of the situation.
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Flames Draft Watcher For This Useful Post:
I have no issue with the Gaudreau comment. Yes he might be the highest scoring college player. But that means jack squat in the best league in the world. Does anyone here realistically see Gaudreau excelling in tight-checking/grinding 1-0, 2-1 games in the tough Pacific division every game? He's not going to dance around defenders and NHL caliber checkers like he's used to. I have no doubt that he will experience immense growing pains and will have to earn every single bit of praise he'll ever get. Even Marty St. Louis still has to scratch and claw for everything he gets around the league. It's just a fact of life that Gaudreau is going to be a tiny player in the big tough Pacific division and is going to need help.
Show me when Burke hasn't taken a skilled player in the top 5-10. Until you can you shouldn't be worried about him passing on skill at the top end of the draft.
Chris Pronger
Daniel Sedin
Henrik Sedin
Nazem Kadri
Morgan Rielly
Pretty good track record at the top. No noticeable bias towards size or away from skill.
The Following User Says Thank You to Flames Draft Watcher For This Useful Post:
1993 - Chris Pronger 2nd overall, Marek Malik 72rd overall, Nolan Pratt 115th, Manny Legace 188 - pretty good draft for Burke
1998 - Bryan Allen 4th overall, Artem Chubarov 31st overall, Jarko Ruutu 68th overall, busts out on his other 9 picks - ok draft
1999 - Sedin's, nothing else - pretty good draft to get two anchors for your team for the next 10-15 years
2000 - 7 picks, nothing squat - terrible draft
2001 - RJ Umberger (could not sign him, traded him and a prospect for Martin Rucinsky), Kevin Bieksa - Bieksa was a great find in the 5th round but he got next to nothing for a first round pick
2002 - nothing
2003 - Kesler, nothing else - below average draft
2005 - Bobby Ryan 2nd overall and Brendan Mickelson nothing else - pretty poor draft
2006 - Matt Belesky, nothing else - terrible draft
2007 - 8 picks and the best player was Erik Tangradi. Horrific draft
2009 - Nazem Kadri 5th overall, nothing else - does not look like a good draft right now
2010 - Nothing right now
2011 - Nothing right now
2012 - Rielly at 5th overall
Looks pretty sparse for old Brian Burke in terms of drafting. For the most part it appears that Burke is bit like Kevin Lowe in terms of drafting, he does pretty good with top 5 picks and after that he does nothing.
I got to say this is an absolute horrific assessment of his drafting record. Just because a team only picks up one or two good players in a draft does not mean it was necessarily a "bad" draft. Heck most teams strike out year after year, and picking up one solid top six player would be an achievement.
Getting both Sedin's equates to a "pretty good draft"... Have you looked at who else was taken that year? After the Sedin's, there are only a handful of players even worth noting as established NHLers (Zetterberg, Havlat, Jackman, Erat, Vrbata). That was a tremendously bad draft year, and yet Burke made a great deal to pick up both Sedin twins, and ensured Vancouver would be a competitive team for over a decade. But I guess since he didn't take Zetterberg that draft was only "pretty good".
In 2001, unfortunately he was unable to sign Umberger, but he was able to trade him for an established NHLer in Rucinsky. Maybe it didn't work out, but most deadline deals don't work out in the end. Prospects are traded all time time, so I find it hard to be that critical of him that year and say it wasn't a good draft for him.
Obviously 2003 was an outliner year in that there were plenty of good players available. Hate on Kesler all you want, but Burke stole him at 23rd overall, and now he's probably a top ten player from that draft. Only one player taken in the first round after Kesler has more points than him (Cory Perry). So he got extremely good value right there. Really the only pick you can be critical of was his second rounder (60th overall), but it's not like there were a ton of great players still on the board. Sure he could have got more out of that draft, but still one very solid player is better than what we ended up with.
2005 was another poor draft year, and even if he didn't want Ryan over Johnson it still was decent enough considering the circumstances. He didn't get much out of his later picks, but it's a rarity that most teams find good players later in the draft. He definitely could have done better here, but I still wouldn't chalk it up as a terrible draft.
2006 and 2007 were bad, without question. But it's a tad excusable since they were just coming off winning the Cup. He more than made up for his failures at the draft through solid trades and astute UFA signings. Just like in Vancouver the Ducks were always competitive, so they either didn't have first round picks, or were picking low in the draft. At least when he does pick near the top he has a proven track record, and that's a good thing considering where we're at right now. When picking in the top ten you could argue Burke has taken the best available player each time (Pronger, Sedin's, Ryan, and even Kadri could be a possibility).
It's a tad too early to judge what he did in Toronto, but I'd say it's fair to think he's at least on par to what the Flames did during that same time period. Both teams have a couple solid NHLers, and also a fair amount of busts. Just like you shouldn't judge the 2011/12 draft on our side quite yet, you shouldn't judge theirs. Although Kadri looks like a bonafide top six forward, while the jury is still out on Sven.
Overall I think Burke's draft record shows he's at least competent, he's definitely better in other forms of player acquisition, but even though he may not succeed every year, that does not mean his entire drafting record should be called into question.
Last edited by trackercowe; 01-30-2014 at 03:55 PM.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to trackercowe For This Useful Post:
Gaudreau has shown no signs of physicality and playing against players 6'~ slowing him down. He's most certainly not going to dance around defenders in this league, but there's enough smaller players in this league that have refined their game at the top level and found success offensively, despite physically rarely getting involved. Gaudreau is extremely slick and players have extreme difficulty trying to take him out of the play physically. To me this shows that he has pretty peak awareness on the ice in knowing where people are around him (which has also aided in his offense), and won't be getting slammed with much ease at the nevel level either. He won't be able to deeke to the extent he does now, but I think that with even bigger players on average, they might even have a harder time lining him up.
All that aside, I believe Gaudreau really is at a top tier talent level and I see him entering the league and experiencing the same type of success as Kane, who got rocked a fair bit in his rookie season but found ways to make his offense come through because he was just that talented and had instincts quick enough for the big game. Like him, I believe Gaudreau is also just that talented. I think he will find a way.
Overall I think Burke's draft record shows he's at least competent, he's definitely better in other forms of player acquisition, but even though he may not succeed every year, that does not mean his entire drafting record should be called into question.
VANCOUVER:
Spoiler!
1999
1st round, 2nd overall - F Daniel Sedin
1st round, 3rd overall - F Henrik Sedin
3rd round, 69th overall - D Rene Vydareny
5th round, 129th overall - F Ryan Thorpe
6th round, 172th overall - D Josh Reed
7th round, 189th overall - G Kevin Swanson
8th round, 218th overall - D Markus Kankaanpera
9th round, 271th overall - D Darrell Hay
outside of the Sedins, not a single NHL game among the other picks.
2000
1st round, 23th overall - F Nathan Smith
3rd round, 71th overall - F Thatcher Bell
3rd round, 93th overall - D Tim Branham
5th round, 144th overall - F Pavel Duma
7th round, 208th overall - F Brandon Reid
8th round, 241th overall - F Nathan Barrett
9th round, 272th overall - F Tim Smith
just a horrible, horrible draft. Nathan Smith and Brandon Reid have a combined 39 NHL games to their names, the others didn't make it ... essentially the Canucks blew a whole draft class.
2001
1st round, 16th overall - F R.J. Umberger
3rd round, 66th overall - F Fedor Fedorov
4th round, 114th overall - F Evgeny Gladskikh
5th round, 151st overall - D Kevin Bieksa
7th round, 212nd overall - F Jason King
8th round, 245th overall - F Konstantin Mikhailov
The Canucks' best draft under Burke as a GM, as four players made it to the NHL. Umberger and Bieksa became good NHLers, King played 59 games and Fedorov got 18.
2002
2nd round, 49th overall - D Kirill Koltsov
2nd round, 55th overall - D Denis Grot
3rd round, 68th overall - D Brett Skinner
3rd round, 83rd overall - G Lukas Mensator
4th round, 114th overall - F John Laliberte
5th round, 151st overall - G Rob McVicar
7th round, 214th overall - F Marc-Andre Roy
7th round, 223th overall - F Ilya Krikunov
8th round, 247th overall - G Matt Violin
9th round, 277th overall - F Thomas Nussli
9th round, 278th overall - F Matt Gens
absolutely horrible - another complete draft class lost for Vancouver. Skinner played 11 games, McVicar a single game - and that's it. Nothing else. Zero. Nada.
2003
1st round, 23rd round - F Ryan Kesler
2nd round, 60th overall - F Marc-Andre Bernier
4th round, 111st overall - F Brandon Nolan
4th round, 128th overall - F Ty Morris
5th round, 160th overall - F Nicklas Danielsson
6th round, 190th overall - D Chad Brownlee
7th round, 222nd overall - F Francois-Pierre Guenette
8th round, 252nd overall - F Sergei Topol
8th round, 254th overall - D Nathan McIver
9th round, 285th overall - D Matthew Hansen
again, pretty bad. Kesler obviously turned out great, but that's about it. Nolan played 6 games in the NHL and McIver has played 36 as an injury callup. Nobody else made it.
So that's 42 draft picks, of which 13 have played at least one game in the NHL. Five of those players have played more than 100 NHL games - four of those were 1st round picks. One 1st round pick and three 2nd round picks were complete busts.
ANAHEIM:
Spoiler!
2005 1st round, 2nd overall - F Bobby Ryan
2nd round, 31st overall - D Brendan Mikkelson
3rd round, 63rd overall - F Jason Bailey
5th round, 127th overall - F Bobby Bolt
5th round, 141st overall - D Brian Salcido
7th round, 197th overall - G Jean-Phillippe Levasseur
Ryan is great, but that was an easy pick at the top. Other than that, Mikkelson has bounced around the NHL and AHL for various teams and Salcido got 2 NHL games.
2006
1st round, 19th overall - D Mark Mitera
2nd round, 38th overall - F Bryce Swan
3rd round, 83rd overall - D John de Gray
4th round, 112nd overall - F Matt Beleskey
6th round, 172nd overall - F Petteri Wirtanen
horrible. It's the last two picks that made it to the NHL - Beleskey turned out well as a utility player for the Ducks, Wirtanen got a 3 game stint five years ago. Their early picks in this one were total busts.
2007
1st round, 19th overall - F Logan MacMillan
2nd round, 42nd overall - F Eric Tangradi
3rd round, 63rd overall - F Maxime Macenauer
4th round, 92nd overall - F Justin Vaive
4th round, 93rd overall - D Steven Kampfer
4th round, 98th overall - G Sebastian Stefaniszin
4th round, 121st overall - G Mattias Modig
5th round, 151st overall - F Brett Morrison
another 1st round bust. Tangradi, Macenauer and Kampfer have all played in the NHL, but not as regulars, and all three of them are already with their third NHL organization right now. The others didn't make the NHL.
2008
1st round, 17th overall - D Jake Gardiner
2nd round, 35th overall - F Nicolas Deschamps
2nd round, 39th overall - F Eric O'Dell
2nd round, 43rd overall - D Justin Schultz
3rd round, 71st overall - F Josh Brittain
3rd round, 83rd overall - G Marco Cousineau
3rd round, 85th overall - F Brandon McMillan
4th round, 113th overall - D Ryan Hegarty
5th round, 143rd overall - D Stefan Warg
7th round, 208th overall - D Nick Pryor
probably his best draft in Anaheim. Gardiner and Schultz have made it as full-time NHLers - obviously not with the Ducks though. McMillan played 91 with the Ducks, but has faded and is in the AHL now. O'Dell only recently played his first NHL game with the Jets. The others didn't make it.
So that's 29 draft picks, of which 12 have played at least one game in the NHL. Only five of those players have played more than 100 NHL games. Two 1st round picks and two 2nd round picks were complete busts.
Didn't include Toronto yet because it's still early for that, but from today's point of view, it looks bad too outside of the top 10 picks.
I have no idea how much of this is to blame on Burke, but it's a pretty bad draft record. Maybe it's down to scouts, but the fact that the drafting of three different teams looks bad, you have to think that he's a big part of that. If Feaster gets blamed for the Jankowski risk, then what can we say about Burke? Nathan Smith. Mark Mitera. Logan MacMillan. Tyler Biggs. Plus all the 2nd round picks that never even got a sniff of the NHL.
Last edited by devo22; 01-30-2014 at 04:19 PM.
Reason: Added 2005
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to devo22 For This Useful Post:
Pretty good draft? ####ing joke. That was an amazing draft. Burke had said that Pronger was who he thought should have gone first when the rest of the world was drooling over Alexandre "No one remembers number two" Diagle. His next pick, 70 spots later, goes on to play 700 games. He gets another 500+ game player and a goalie who plays close to 400. Take a look at the rest of the teams. Who had a better draft that year? No one.
It was also just a terrible draft. Unless you got lucky and picked Zetterberg with the 210th pick there wasn't a way to come out of that draft happy. Well except for Burke who orchestrated getting both Sedins in a franchise changing move. We can make fun of the Canucks and the Sedins as much as we want but being unbiased again that was a slaughter by Burke.
You got to look at the individual drafts, draft picks and not just the players. 2005 might not have been a great haul, but again bad draft for near everyone. Mason Raymond is one of the better players from that draft class and he couldn't even get a contract this summer. A lot of teams would have been happy to come away with "just" Ryan that year.
As for 2005 it is pretty hard to screw up the 2nd overall pick (unless you wanted Jack Johnson, that would have been a mistake). There are still about 50 players who played at least 150 games from that draft class, so having 1 player in that group is at best below average, at the absolute best Burke was adequate in that draft.
As for 1993 pretty good is about what it was that year for him. The Islanders arguably had a better draft (getting Bertuzzi late in the first round), Bryan McCabe in the second round, Tommy Salo in the 5th round and Darren Van Impe in the 7th round. I acknowledged that that was a good year for him. He has presided over a number of drafts and has more busts than home runs.
Washington did ok with Witt, Allison and Brunette
The guy is what he is, drafts well in the top 5 and rarely finds anything outside of that range.
He wants to put an emphasis on size, that doesn't automatically mean that that's all that matters. Not like he intends to ice an entire team of John Scott's
It's a tad too early to judge what he did in Toronto, but I'd say it's fair to think he's at least on par to what the Flames did during that same time period. Both teams have a couple solid NHLers, and also a fair amount of busts. Just like you shouldn't judge the 2011/12 draft on our side quite yet, you shouldn't judge theirs. Although Kadri looks like a bonafide top six forward, while the jury is still out on Sven.
Overall I think Burke's draft record shows he's at least competent, he's definitely better in other forms of player acquisition, but even though he may not succeed every year, that does not mean his entire drafting record should be called into question.
His 2011 draft is brutal, 9 picks including 2 first rounders and not one of them look anything like a good NHL player, Percy may play someday but he's even getting scratched in the A. Biggs is a total bust and the rest are meh at best.
For Burke to throw stones at Feaster is laughable. His big f'kn mouth has got me very concerned about some of Feasters picks and how he's going to "unstamp" them.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to T@T For This Useful Post:
I have no issue with the Gaudreau comment. Yes he might be the highest scoring college player. But that means jack squat in the best league in the world. Does anyone here realistically see Gaudreau excelling in tight-checking/grinding 1-0, 2-1 games in the tough Pacific division every game? He's not going to dance around defenders and NHL caliber checkers like he's used to. I have no doubt that he will experience immense growing pains and will have to earn every single bit of praise he'll ever get. Even Marty St. Louis still has to scratch and claw for everything he gets around the league. It's just a fact of life that Gaudreau is going to be a tiny player in the big tough Pacific division and is going to need help.
I totally agree with you. Anybody remember Ryan Duncan!? One of the greatest college players ever to come out of Calgary, he outscored Jonathan Toews their last year of college together at UND.
Couldn't even get a sniff in the show. Just too darn small.
Another small guy on their college line, TJ Oshie, has also struggled to stay healthy in the men's game.
Smaller guys can and often do prosper in the NCAA but it's not a slam dunk that they can translate that success to the NHL. Let's hope Johnny Hockey is one of the ones who can make that jump.
As much as we'd like to get Ekblad, i am pretty sure the tank job the oilers are working on pretty much guarantees they will pick up Ekblad. I think regardless of draft position (1,2 or 3) Oilers are targeting this guy. Unless we can tank better than them i don't think he will be available.
As for 2005 it is pretty hard to screw up the 2nd overall pick (unless you wanted Jack Johnson, that would have been a mistake). There are still about 50 players who played at least 150 games from that draft class, so having 1 player in that group is at best below average, at the absolute best Burke was adequate in that draft.
Who cares about 150 games? Seems like just trying to get a cutoff for Mikkelson.
He messed up on the Mikkelson pick, Neal was a couple picks later as was Vasic but so was Stoa, Plante, Chorney, Jackson, Frazee, Klaus and Sauer. So out of the 10 players available only 2 were worth anything. Scout all you want but there's some luck involved and that year simply wasn't a strong draft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarongavey
As for 1993 pretty good is about what it was that year for him. The Islanders arguably had a better draft (getting Bertuzzi late in the first round), Bryan McCabe in the second round, Tommy Salo in the 5th round and Darren Van Impe in the 7th round.
Pretty good? What? Come on. It was pure and simply a slaughter. He didn't have the pick to draft Pronger, he had to move up to get him which meant his next pick would be the 70th pick. And after that it's history, every single team would trade everyone they drafted to get Pronger, Malik, Pratt, and Legace without thinking twice. There's 0 room for argument here.
Islanders grabbing Bertuzzi and McCabe is definitely nice for them, but Bertuzzi(23rd) and McCabe (40th) were drafted 30+ picks before Hartford would get to draft Malik with their 2nd pick and there's 0 chance even in retrospect that they move the 2nd (after getting it) for Bertuzzi and McCabe. Certainly not giving enough credit to Burke here.
It was 20 years ago, so I mean he can't live off that one draft, but anyone who calls that just a pretty good draft when actually looking at can't be serious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarongavey
The guy is what he is, drafts well in the top 5 and rarely finds anything outside of that range.
Rarely, maybe. But who are these GMs that are routinely drafting impact players in the later rounds? There's maybe 2 still in the league.
And more important is that while he has an amazing track record drafting in the top 5, he hasn't had that many top 5 natural picks. He had the 6th in 1993, had to deal to get the 2nd to get Pronger. He had the 3rd in 1999 but had to wheel and deal to effectively get the 1st and 2nd. (Stefan will go down as the 1st overall officially but the deal was more complex. Canucks had acquired the 1st after spreading rumours the Sedins would only come over together which pressured Tampa into moving their first. After they wanted to move up with their own 3rd to the 2nd to draft both Sedins. Atlanta instead agreed to the "move down" but they worked out a deal where they got the first pick but couldn't draft a Sedin essentially to hype up Stefan as the first overall for the new franchise.)
So I'd say it's more impressive that he's been able to recognize when the time is to go all-in on the drafts to get the right top 5 picks. Maybe if he stayed put in 1999 he would have his later round picks to draft such superstars Commodore and Adam Hall but instead of the Sedins he would have had Stefan.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Oling_Roachinen For This Useful Post:
lol at Flames fans comparing Burke's drafting over the years. All of you realize that the Flames haven't drafted and developed one of their own into top tier player in probably 20 years! TJ Brodie is probably the closest thing that we have to it at this point and he was drafted 114th overall!
Hindsight is 20/20, can it really be any worse then trading away first and second rounders year after year and not having anything at all to look forward to?
It's also important to note that the quality of hockey players being drafted is getting more difficult to distinguish...beyond the top 10 or even top 5 is really is a crapshoot
__________________
Thanks to Halifax Drunk for the sweet Avatar
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to return to the red For This Useful Post:
I have no issue with using a later pick on a goalie every 2 years or so. Lots of good goalies are drafted in the later rounds.
Niemi - undrafted
Lundqvist - 205th overall
Miller - 138th overall
Rinne - 258th overall
Bobrovsky - undrafted
Hiller - undrafted
Halak - 271st overall
Kiprusoff - 116th overall
Smith - 161st overall
I'm sure there's more I just stopped looking. They should definitely look into drafting more goalies in the late rounds, you never know what can happen with goalies.
I absolutely agree with you -- I think it's been proven that because goalies are so unpredictible to project, quantity is just as important as quality. Look at our current starters, Ramo (6th round) and Berra (4th round). Even our current prospects, Ortio (6th round) and to a lesser extent, Gillies (3rd round) fall into the same category.
I'm not sure what the context of Burke's comment was but it sounded like a later round selection was what would fix our goalie situation (as Burke has gone on the record previously that he isn't happy with the current setup). I'm all for picking up goalie prospects in the later rounds as on overall drafting strategy (as you've suggested) -- at some point one of those are going to hit.
