Stephen Harper and Federal Conservatives War on Science

[kirant]

Originally Posted by John Doe

Yeah? Well, I'm voting NDP. Looks like we have a Mexican standoff!

I'm voting Rhino then. What do we have now?

[Luder]

Originally Posted by kirant

I'm voting Rhino then. What do we have now?

2 wasted votes?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by boosterjuice

Canada has flourished under Harper's leadership.

Out of curiosity, in which way have we flourished? We treaded water in some aspects (economically) and took huge steps backwards on both the world stage and how we are viewed and in the sciences. In no way did we ever "flourish".

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by boosterjuice

Canada has flourished under Harper's leadership. I love what he and the conservatives have done for country.

What have they done that's positive?

[nik-]

We didn't cave in economically like many other countries which is a major positive. But we never flourished and we've taken steps back socially. I credit the Conservatives for their economic work ... it's a pity they couldn't leave their government at just that. People just can't resist biting too much of the apple.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by nik-

We didn't cave in economically like many other countries which is a major positive. But we never flourished and we've taken steps back socially. I credit the Conservatives for their economic work ... it's a pity they couldn't leave their government at just that. People just can't resist biting too much of the apple.

I'm not an economic expert, but I thought it had more to do with banking regulations that the Harper government has little to nothing to do with...

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'm not an economic expert, but I thought it had more to do with banking regulations that the Harper government has little to nothing to do with...

If Harper takes the blame for things he is indirectly related to, then is it fair to give credit for the same?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

If Harper takes the blame for things he is indirectly related to, then is it fair to give credit for the same?

Not if we're going to have a discussion with critical thinking...


Edit: missed a critical word

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Not if we're going to have a discussion with thinking...

I dont know how to take this. Green text?

[Barnet Flame]

The economic collapse worst in those countries with the most lax regulatory banking frameworks. Frameworks that were created prior to the Harper era. We can never know for sure, but there was in my opinion a very good chance that given time a Harper administration would have been very sympathetic to stripping away the regulatory framework that ensured Canada weathered the storm.

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

The economic collapse worst in those countries with the most lax regulatory banking frameworks. Frameworks that were created prior to the Harper era. We can never know for sure, but there was in my opinion a very good chance that given time a Harper administration would have been very sympathetic to stripping away the regulatory framework that ensured Canada weathered the storm.

Well we do know for sure. That didn't happen. And the fact that you can use perfect hindsight and still get it wrong is frightening.

Obviously the fact Canada sailed through a world wide financial crisis is complicated and based on many factors. Being one of the commodity currencies along with huge demand from China for exports helped. Strong banking regulations that are a foundation of our economy helped. The oil sands helped. The price of oil helped. The price of gold helped. The freedom for citizens of Canada to move west and snap up six figure jobs helped. The real estate bubbles propped up by foreign money help. Canada's health care system helped. You can go on and on.

But the the ability of posters to completely disregard the leader of the sitting government for the worst financial crisis in generations is crazy. Are you really gonna go with "he could've screwed it up, even though he didn't, we still hate him." He didn't steal your abortions, he didn't lynch the gays, Harper is not the tea party. And the people not giving him credit for Canada being in such a strong position going on almost a decade now are being dishonest with themselves. And to top it off, some of the ammunition posters are using such as balanced budgets and deficits were forced on the Conservatives by party's the left supports.

Just because i don't vote left doesn't mean i cant appreciate Tommy Douglas or Paul Martin. Some of you guys need to open up your eyes and stop with the fear mongering. We have had it pretty good. Harper might not win the next election, but he will end up with a pretty strong legacy.

[Tinordi]

Well why don't we dabble with Harper's legacy. Here's a good starting point:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busines...092/story.html

Estimated amount spent on taxpayer-funded advertisements since 2009 touting the “Economic Action Plan” and the government’s economic record : $113,000,000
National unemployment rate in January, 2006: 6.6
National unemployment rate in December, 2013: 7.2
Increase in the number of unemployed in Canada since January 2006: 236,200
Youth unemployment rate, January 2006: 12.2
Youth unemployment rate, December 2013: 14.0
Rank of Canada’s unemployment rate in 2013 compared to other G7 countries: 3rd
Rank of Canada among the 34 OECD nations in employment creation 2007-2012: 20th
Number of governments since 1935 that have presided over a slower rate of real economic growth per capita than the Harper Conservatives: 0
Number of consecutive annual federal budget deficits: 6
Number of budget deficit targets hit by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty: 0
Number of consecutive annual federal budget surpluses under the previous Liberal (Chrétien/Martin) governments: 9
Amount added to the federal national debt since Conservatives took power in 2006: $123,500,000,000
Number of years it would take to count to 123,500,000,000, counting non-stop at one number per second: 3,913
Portion of the total federal debt accumulated since 2006: 1/5
Budget surplus in percentage terms, relative to the nominal GDP, 2006: +1.6
Budget balance in percentage terms, relative to the nominal GDP, 2013: -3.0
Percentage increase in the inflation-adjusted average hourly manufacturing wage, 2006-2013: 0
Percentage drop in productivity (GDP produced per employed person), 2006 to September 2013: 1.9
Percentage increase in the number of federal civil servants, 2005-2012: 14
Exchange rate of the Canadian dollar (cents US), January 2006: 87
Exchange rate of the Canadian dollar (cents US), December 2013: 94
Consecutive monthly merchandise trade deficits: 23
Percentage increase in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, 2006-2013: 55.1
Percentage increase in the TSX Composite Index, 2006-2013: 16.1
Average house price, January 2006 : $256,537
Average house price, December 2013 : $389,119
Amount Canadians owed for every $1 in disposable income they earned, 2005: $1.30
Amount Canadians owed for every $1 in disposable income they earned, 2013: $1.64
Decima Research Index of Consumer Confidence, December 2005: 84.8
Decima Research Index of Consumer Confidence, December 2013: 84.4
Percentage of the popular vote won by the Harper Conservatives in the 2006 election: 36
Percentage of those questioned in a December Harris-Decima poll who would vote Conservative: 26

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Well we do know for sure. That didn't happen. And the fact that you can use perfect hindsight and still get it wrong is frightening.

Obviously the fact Canada sailed through a world wide financial crisis is complicated and based on many factors. Being one of the commodity currencies along with huge demand from China for exports helped. Strong banking regulations that are a foundation of our economy helped. The oil sands helped. The price of oil helped. The price of gold helped. The freedom for citizens of Canada to move west and snap up six figure jobs helped. The real estate bubbles propped up by foreign money help. Canada's health care system helped. You can go on and on.

But the the ability of posters to completely disregard the leader of the sitting government for the worst financial crisis in generations is crazy. Are you really gonna go with "he could've screwed it up, even though he didn't, we still hate him." He didn't steal your abortions, he didn't lynch the gays, Harper is not the tea party. And the people not giving him credit for Canada being in such a strong position going on almost a decade now are being dishonest with themselves. And to top it off, some of the ammunition posters are using such as balanced budgets and deficits were forced on the Conservatives by party's the left supports.

Just because i don't vote left doesn't mean i cant appreciate Tommy Douglas or Paul Martin. Some of you guys need to open up your eyes and stop with the fear mongering. We have had it pretty good. Harper might not win the next election, but he will end up with a pretty strong legacy.

I think you and I see eye to eye. Why can't we think critically on each issue instead of cheering for our "team". Why is it that if you vote conservative you must agree with ridiculous policies? Why if you vote left can you not appreciate the stability the Conservatives policies have brought?
As for the economic indicators put forth as part of his legacy, how can you in his conscience use employment start vs finish? Is absurd. So every western foreign leader since 2008 is terrible? That's like hanging a loss in a goalie when you put him in in the third already down by eight goals.
By the same token. How can people excuse the blatant and rampant disregard fit Canadians with all of these scandals and the ridiculous "Sorry, didn't know anything about it" lives afterwards?


Edit. Jesus this SwiftKey makes my posts look bad

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Well we do know for sure. That didn't happen. And the fact that you can use perfect hindsight and still get it wrong is frightening.

Obviously the fact Canada sailed through a world wide financial crisis is complicated and based on many factors. Being one of the commodity currencies along with huge demand from China for exports helped. Strong banking regulations that are a foundation of our economy helped. The oil sands helped. The price of oil helped. The price of gold helped. The freedom for citizens of Canada to move west and snap up six figure jobs helped. The real estate bubbles propped up by foreign money help. Canada's health care system helped. You can go on and on.

But the the ability of posters to completely disregard the leader of the sitting government for the worst financial crisis in generations is crazy. Are you really gonna go with "he could've screwed it up, even though he didn't, we still hate him." He didn't steal your abortions, he didn't lynch the gays, Harper is not the tea party. And the people not giving him credit for Canada being in such a strong position going on almost a decade now are being dishonest with themselves. And to top it off, some of the ammunition posters are using such as balanced budgets and deficits were forced on the Conservatives by party's the left supports.

Just because i don't vote left doesn't mean i cant appreciate Tommy Douglas or Paul Martin. Some of you guys need to open up your eyes and stop with the fear mongering. We have had it pretty good. Harper might not win the next election, but he will end up with a pretty strong legacy.

Relax pal. My point is that Conservatives lean towards deregulation and it was Canada's relatively strongly regulated banking industry that played a strong part in helping it through the economic crisis. Had there been a Harper Government some years earlier, it is entirely plausible to speculate that it may have been different. I never came out with any definitive statement that you ought to find frightening. So please, sleep well.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Well why don't we dabble with Harper's legacy. Here's a good starting point:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busines...092/story.html

The west wants in.

Jesus, what an indictment of The Harper Government.

I bet this goes almost completely unchallenged, just some more blathering about trudeau.

[Tinordi]

I'm willing to give the Conservatives a fairly wide swath on the economy, they've been tough times but even still, none of their reforms have done any good. The big economic policy items they've made have been ass backwards like cutting the GST, providing a tax cut for daycare (really?), the Economic Action Plan was the thinnest of gruels. Either embrace Keynesianism and really try to renew infrastructure or don't do anything at all. The fact that they wasted $130 million advertising (orders of magnitude more than the sponsorship scandal) a useless program that they only signed through gnashed teeth is the icing on the cake of incompetence.

What bothers me most about Harper is the way he runs his business. Everything is political. Nothing is even remotely evidence based. Parliament is a nuisance and something to be triaged away. There is no accountability to Canadians for his government only to the most partisan elements of his base. And, the negativity and fear is leveraged whenever possible to strengthen his hand.

[Tinordi]

The best example is the whole tough on crime agenda that works so well with the fearful, insulated, woolheaded conservative base. There is no evidence that this works, lots of evidence that it will cost us way more, and further subjugates criminals paving the road to them being just seen as animals.

Take the pre-trial issue. Prior to the Conservatives and their we know better for the sake that we know better ideology, judges award credit of time served for pre-trial. Pre-trial is mostly awful. You sit alone in a cell in a jail. It's way worse than prison where at least there are activities, socialization, and moderate purpose to your time spent there like work and education. In pre-trial you just sit there. Many people, such as immigration defendants sit in pre-trial for up to a year.

Judges and any seasoned professional in the criminal justice system knew that pre-trial was the hardest time. So they routinely gave 2x credit for pre-trial. If you're sentenced to a 3 year term but did a year of pre-trial you were considered to have already served two years of that term. There's a fairly developed criminology literature that pre-trial is a detriment to a person's rehab and it's a good way to alleviate resources in the system.

But the mouth-breathing hordes would have none of that! The Harper Government decided that there should be no credit to pre-trial. Why? Because! That would be a criminal slithering out of the sentence and justice that they so deserved. Judges, those liberal Judges, had no right to show "leniency" and now pre-trial gets no credit.

This goes back to Harper's top prerogative to throw slabs of red meat to this base that wants revenge against criminals instead of the much more socially beneficial rehabilitation. It's just one more data point of why I don't like the guy. They just decided to do this against the better judgement of the experts because screw them, they know better! That's no way to run a country.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

And to top it off, some of the ammunition posters are using such as balanced budgets and deficits were forced on the Conservatives by party's the left supports.

No, not really.

Harper brought down the surplus before there was any hint that the economy would struggle. Effectively, he started firing his bullets before the fight had even started. The fact that he had to pushed into a stimulus program is just another reason why he should not be overcredited for Canada's economic performance.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The west wants in.

Jesus, what an indictment of The Harper Government.

I bet this goes almost completely unchallenged, just some more blathering about trudeau.

Well, I bet the Liberals could have made some pretty significant inroads into the West this election, but they chose a horrible leader at a crucial time.

We'll see what happens, but I bet they regret this choice.

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by nik-

Well, I bet the Liberals could have made some pretty significant inroads into the West this election, but they chose a horrible leader at a crucial time.

We'll see what happens, but I bet they regret this choice.

I doubt it. The areas of the West that traditionally vote Conservative will still vote Conservative. It's Ontario and Quebec that the Liberals need back.