Cowards terrorists strike Egypt/France

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 8 2004, 02:07 PM


I dont deal in "what ifs", I deal wit the reality of the situation.

Yeah? Still looking for those weapons of mass destruction?

Anyway, you are right. Sharon hasn't come out and said "I want to eradicate them". His actions in the past say something very different.

But, his actions in the present also say something different. He's publically taken a stand to pull everyone out of the Gaza Strip, so that's a good sign. I don't know how far they have gone to achieving that goal,but at least he said it.

Of course the religious fanatics in the settlement might start firing back at Israeli soldiers so it's a tenuous situation.

There are people in Israel that want to kill all Arabs, or at least get rid of them -- push them into the sea, as it were. How do I know this? Because they continue to take over more and more land and build more and more settlements.

Certain lunatics on both sides of this fence wish for the eradication of the other side. It's obvious.

[CaptainCrunch]

Wasn't Sharon also accused of squirrelling money away. Also, I would argue that by putting settlements in the 'combat zone' Israel is doing exactly what you accuse the Palestinians of. Both sides turn innocents into pawns.

If you look back on the situation, Israeli's actually starting the terrorist attacks and drove Palestinians off their land in the '50's. Palestinians have proven to be good copycats, not that it is a good trait to copy.

I've never come out to back Sharon, but he's certainly less hawkish then a lot of other members of thier government.

But the country was given to Isreal to do with as they pleased, and as stated earlier they bought a great deal of land from Palestine interests there.

The Palestine land claims within the borders of Isreal are a non starter. The settlements in the contested areas are a source of contention. However the palestines are being screwed over by not only the Isreali's but by the other arab nations that believe that having the Palestines where they are is much better politically, and having them suffer, is a much better alternative then allowing Palestines to settle within thier borders.

So you have to ask the question, why aren't the Palestines angry at and blowing up people in the other surrounding nations, answer, because they are of the same religion.

Now, you wouldn't be excusing reprensible actions with 'consider the situation' arguments, would you!! Not sure if you were one of the posters that suggested that trying to understand a terrorists point of view makes you a terrorist, but that is a pretty common theme from the right. Furthermore, if you look up death tolls from the conflict, it is pretty clear that more innocent Palestinians die than Israeli's. Not that it makes either side right, but it seems to me that if you can excuse Israeli response, you should excuse Palestinian response under the same or worse conditions, no??


You have to ask yourself if the IDF is actually going out of thier way to kill civilians and destroy thier infrastructure, or if the actual civilian casualties are caused by the integration of extremist leaders into these camps and settlements. The Isreali's wouldn't have to fire rockets at Hezbollah leaders in civilian areas if these leaders actually gave a crap about the people that they're supposed to be fighting for.

I actually read a pretty revealing terrorist paper a while ago where the CIA got thier hands on a senior Hezbollah leader and he basically told them that it was better that thier own people starved and suffered because it would make them angry and more willing to not only donate money that they didn't have, but it made it easier for them to recruit willing people to carry out suicide bombings.

So in short answer, yes there are civilian palestine casualties, but its not like the IDF is conducting a terror campaign on them or intentionally trying to kill them. That would be easy enough to do with an F15 and some Napalm canisters. The Terrorist groups are targeting school buses and shopping centers, so in terms of differences there is a huge one

Further, you state as fact that Israel is interested in settling this. If I was a Palestinian, and saw Israeli settlements crop up daily, reducing the size of my 'country' all the while, I might just conclude that they were trying to 'push me into the ocean' (as I've seen you suggest from the other side).

How many times has Isreal willingly negotiated land for peace, they even began to dismantle Jewish Settlements after the road map to peace was ratified only to have some more crazies strap on the Semtex vest. Yes the Isreali's are heavy handed, but you can never ever say that the Terrorist groups have been willing to come to the table, or have been willing to negotiate for a peaceful solution, so they've basically backed Isreal into a corner, and Isreal's only way out is to kill the leadership of these groups.

This wall that thier building is a last resort scenario for them to control access to thier people. I personally don't blame them for trying to build it. If you can control or negate the flow of people into your lands you can secure against some lunatic blowing up your kid.


My problem with your position is that you equate using a military to attack civilians as somehow different than using a suicide bomber to accomplish the same. I'm positive that if someone was supplying the Palestinians with gunships, tanks, etc. they would no doubt attack in a more conventional manner (not that there would be fewer civilian deaths, but somehow I think to you there would be a difference). However, as Palestine has no 'backer' they are not in a position to behave as a military. If Palestine did the Canadian thing and just caved to Israel, what sort of solution do you suppose Sharon would come up with??

In my mind its entirely different.

If I'm sitting in a tank and I see a group of children walking across the street and I target them with an M-50 and reduce them to liquid thats a war crime.

If I'm sitting in a tank and see a car load of Hezbollah leaders in a car heading in to a settlement I'm going to target them and try to kill them. Sadly because these cowards are only willing to expose themselves in these civilian areas that might be your only chance to engage them. Do you take your shot? Thats a moral question that can only be answered if your actually there.

The difference is that the terrorists look at thier maps find the biggest congregation of woman and children and then convince some poor gomer that his religion will love him if he provides mass murder.

You might want to check on the facts about Palestine having no backers, where do you think thier money to purchase explosives, RPG's AK-47 and scorpion machine pistols come from, because those things ain't free.

[Lurch]

You have to ask yourself if the IDF is actually going out of thier way to kill civilians and destroy thier infrastructure, or if the actual civilian casualties are caused by the integration of extremist leaders into these camps and settlements. The Isreali's wouldn't have to fire rockets at Hezbollah leaders in civilian areas if these leaders actually gave a crap about the people that they're supposed to be fighting for.

Does Israel intentionally kill innocents - not sure, though if I was a Palestinian on the ground I'm sure I would feel like they do. Do they go out of their way to destroy civilian infrastructure - very clearly yes, as they routinely bulldoze neighbourhoods as an internationally illegal form of group punishment (which has resulted in a number of UN reprimands, but I know that means nothing to you).

I actually read a pretty revealing terrorist paper a while ago where the CIA got thier hands on a senior Hezbollah leader and he basically told them that it was better that thier own people starved and suffered because it would make them angry and more willing to not only donate money that they didn't have, but it made it easier for them to recruit willing people to carry out suicide bombings.

And I've read plenty of articles that suggest the US government intentionally scares Americans b/c it makes them more pliable for the current administration. What does this prove? Nothing.

But the country was given to Isreal to do with as they pleased, and as stated earlier they bought a great deal of land from Palestine interests there.

The Palestine land claims within the borders of Isreal are a non starter. The settlements in the contested areas are a source of contention. However the palestines are being screwed over by not only the Isreali's but by the other arab nations that believe that having the Palestines where they are is much better politically, and having them suffer, is a much better alternative then allowing Palestines to settle within thier borders.

For starters, much of the land was seized, not bought. Second, why doesn't the US (or Canada for that matter) just step up and give Israel land so the entire country can be relocated? Answer - people become attached to their native land, so it is ridiculous to suggest that Palestinians should just leave, just as it is ridiculous to suggest Israeli's should just move.

Bottom line for me - I think both are engaged in a series of acts, each more despicable than the last, that won't end unless Israel shows a genuine willingness to go back to its internationally recognized borders. Even then, I'm sure there will be constant war between the sides, but I think you would see other countries like Egypt and Jordan get in the discussion in a meaningful way.

You might want to check on the facts about Palestine having no backers, where do you think thier money to purchase explosives, RPG's AK-47 and scorpion machine pistols come from, because those things ain't free.

Sometimes I don't know whether you are serious or not. My grandpa gave me a .22 back when I was a kid - does that make him my 'backer'. It's hardly the same as the military aid Israel gets as the US's client state.

[CaptainCrunch]

QUOTE
You have to ask yourself if the IDF is actually going out of thier way to kill civilians and destroy thier infrastructure, or if the actual civilian casualties are caused by the integration of extremist leaders into these camps and settlements. The Isreali's wouldn't have to fire rockets at Hezbollah leaders in civilian areas if these leaders actually gave a crap about the people that they're supposed to be fighting for.



Does Israel intentionally kill innocents - not sure, though if I was a Palestinian on the ground I'm sure I would feel like they do. Do they go out of their way to destroy civilian infrastructure - very clearly yes, as they routinely bulldoze neighbourhoods as an internationally illegal form of group punishment (which has resulted in a number of UN reprimands, but I know that means nothing to you).

In a well posted law and punishment system, so you have to ask yourself, why do the terrorists routinely set up terror cells in civilian buildings amount thier own population. Because they're savy enough to know what will happen if the Isreali investigations reveal thier precence there. In a twisted sort of way Isreal is playing right into thier hands by creating enclaves of fresh new recruits. But you tell me what they should do? They have to go in to get these thugs, they also have to have some measure of encouragement to prevent people from sheltering these murderers. At least they warn the residence that these buildings are coming down before they bulldoze them. If the IDF was actually targeting these civilians they would chain the doors shut with the people inside before they destroy these homes.QUOTE

I actually read a pretty revealing terrorist paper a while ago where the CIA got thier hands on a senior Hezbollah leader and he basically told them that it was better that thier own people starved and suffered because it would make them angry and more willing to not only donate money that they didn't have, but it made it easier for them to recruit willing people to carry out suicide bombings.



And I've read plenty of articles that suggest the US government intentionally scares Americans b/c it makes them more pliable for the current administration. What does this prove? Nothing.


Nice argument here, so whatever I would post you would say I'm just fearmongeringor useing propoganda. Isn't that swell. This was a transcripted interview, not an opinion piece.

QUOTE
But the country was given to Isreal to do with as they pleased, and as stated earlier they bought a great deal of land from Palestine interests there.

The Palestine land claims within the borders of Isreal are a non starter. The settlements in the contested areas are a source of contention. However the palestines are being screwed over by not only the Isreali's but by the other arab nations that believe that having the Palestines where they are is much better politically, and having them suffer, is a much better alternative then allowing Palestines to settle within thier borders.



For starters, much of the land was seized, not bought. Second, why doesn't the US (or Canada for that matter) just step up and give Israel land so the entire country can be relocated? Answer - people become attached to their native land, so it is ridiculous to suggest that Palestinians should just leave, just as it is ridiculous to suggest Israeli's should just move.

Why not give some land from Jordan or Syria, or Egypt to the Palestines, they have tonnes of it? Why haven't these nations stepped up. The Isreali's had a historical claim to the land, they have historical landmarks and religious Icons in that land. It was given to them by the World Communities, do I feel sympathy for the Palestine's? Sure I do, but I also feel a lot of sympathy for the Jews in Isreal and thier right to land.

Bottom line for me - I think both are engaged in a series of acts, each more despicable than the last, that won't end unless Israel shows a genuine willingness to go back to its internationally recognized borders. Even then, I'm sure there will be constant war between the sides, but I think you would see other countries like Egypt and Jordan get in the discussion in a meaningful way.

Isreal seized that land after being invaded multiple times by the Arab nations. Blame those nations and not Isreal for deciding to keep that land and to use it as a buffer zone against future incursions. Also you fail to recognize that each and everytime that the Isreali government agree's to a land for peace proposal its thrown right in thier faces by terrorists who don't care about a Palestine homeland, but care about killing Jews.

Don't simplify it by saying that Isreal is going out of the way to kill woman and children, because if they were following that doctrine they would certainly be more efficient then they are now.

Bottom line for me is until Palestine gets rid of Arafat, and starts wrapping up these terrorists themselves, and policing themselves there will never be any peace because Isreal is not going to sit back and let them bomb and murder freely.

You can blame Isreal all you want and tell me that they're big nasty murdering bullies, but when you look at which side has gone to the table again and again and at least tried to show good faith it sure ain't the Palestines.

They even had a moderate leader in place who was willing to work with Isreal, and how long did that last? A month or two.
QUOTE
You might want to check on the facts about Palestine having no backers, where do you think thier money to purchase explosives, RPG's AK-47 and scorpion machine pistols come from, because those things ain't free.



Sometimes I don't know whether you are serious or not. My grandpa gave me a .22 back when I was a kid - does that make him my 'backer'. It's hardly the same as the military aid Israel gets as the US's client state.

If you go out and shoot woman and children with that rifle it makes him your backer. If after the murders you and your family got paid by him that would make him a backer.

[Lurch]

Well, I guess this is really a pointless discussion when it comes right down to it. You believe Israel is in the right and I think both sides commit atrocities. Makes it all the less surprising that they can't come to an agreement when two people detached from the situation can't come to an agreement. I have no personal stake and it seems to me that Israel routinely commits atrocities in response to Palestinian atrocities. I presume you have no personal stake, and you see legitimate actions from Israel.

One final thing I need to be clear about - I get the feeling every time I have one of these discussions that to suggest Israel is just as bad as Palestinians is the same as saying suicide bombers are justified. IMO, this "you're either with us or against us" attitude is dead wrong. I have no problem with Israel defending itself - it's when it pursues policies that kill more civilians than militants I have problems. I just read an article saying Israel has killed 2.5 innocent civilians per day since 2000 - I don't care what 'good intentions' you ostensibly have, this is wrong. I think Israel has successfully shown that the Bush doctrine (pre-emptive strikes, military solution) cannot work short of widescale massacre, and steadfastly walking down this path insisting you are in the right the whole well down is pretty thickheaded.


Edit to add: Not even all Israeli soldiers feel they are justified. There has been a growing movement in Israel that suggests the occupation is corrupting the entire country. Here is one link - there are many others.
http://www.jppi.org/islam_online_4_5_02.html

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Looger@Oct 8 2004, 05:09 PM
funny, i have yet to see a thread here slamming jewish settlers that use children picking olives miles away for target practice.

Let's see one, I'll join you in condemning such behavior....will you join me in condemning actions like this? So far, I haven't seen it.

[Agamemnon]

The easiest solution would just be to allow the Palestinian people to integrate into Israeli society. They'd have access to (probably) the best healthcare, education, and social services in the Middle East. Many of the Palestinians (100,000's) actually travel from their enclaves into Israel 'proper' to work during the day, then leave at night. Why not just have the two populations merge, and create a heterogenous society. I think that the Palestinians would still object (rightly) to any presence by Israelis, but I believe if they had a real political voice (the right to vote in Israeli elections) that might go a long way to changing their form of representation in the conflict from suicide bombers to opposition parties. It worked somewhat decently in the Irish conflict, and both those sides were intractable as well.

There's a simple reason why this proposal won't work. Jews dont' want to be a minority, and if they allow all the Palestinians who are in 'Israel' to become citizens, demographic studies show that within a couple decades the Jews would probably be a minority. This is unacceptable, because the Jews want a racially homogenous state (more or less, they DO import some foreign labour for menial tasks).

Does this make the Israeli-Jews racist? I guess it really depends on how you define racism. While I agree that a heterogenously populated country isn't a bad thing, I might be slightly uncomfortable to be a recognizable minority in a country, for reasons that have probably been socially conditioned within me.

Fun debate, agree with the above statement, if we who have no stake in the argument get so heated, imagine how difficult it is for those actually involved. Scary.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Just a couple of things I'd like to point out...

There ARE Palestinian Israeli citizens.
There ARE other religions practiced in Israel besides Judaism.

Agamemnon....your post is a little bit to cut and dry.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 8 2004, 10:44 PM
Just a couple of things I'd like to point out...

There ARE Palestinian Israeli citizens.
There ARE other religions practiced in Israel besides Judaism.

Agamemnon....your post is a little bit to cut and dry.

Well... that's pretty obvious. I don't recall anyone here claiming that there weren't Arab-Jews (I know one), or that other religions aren't practised in Israel.

Just wracking up your post count?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Oct 8 2004, 10:46 PM


Just wracking up your post count?

WTF?

I read your post and it didn't seem like you thought it was obvious.

Excuse me for intruding on your lecture.

What a friendly bunch of people we have here.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 8 2004, 05:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 8 2004, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Oct 8 2004, 10:46 PM


Just wracking up your post count?

WTF?

I read your post and it didn't seem like you thought it was obvious.

Excuse me for intruding on your lecture.

What a friendly bunch of people we have here. [/b][/quote]
This coming from probably the MOST unfriendly poster.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by peter12@Oct 8 2004, 11:15 PM

This coming from probably the MOST unfriendly poster.

I rarely throw the first jab, Peter 12...and if I do, it's usually at someone I've known for a long time.

Besides, everyone knows MMF is more unfriendly than me. :P

[Looger]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 8 2004, 10:14 PM
Let's see one, I'll join you in condemning such behavior....will you join me in condemning actions like this? So far, I haven't seen it.

condemning something without bringing anything intelligent to the conversation, on a message board, is pretty ######ed behaviour.

"i condemn this"

"i condemn that"

congratulations, ***hole.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Looger+Oct 8 2004, 11:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Looger @ Oct 8 2004, 11:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 8 2004, 10:14 PM
Let's see one, I'll join you in condemning such behavior....will you join me in condemning actions like this? So far, I haven't seen it.

condemning something without bringing anything intelligent to the conversation, on a message board, is pretty ######ed behaviour.

"i condemn this"

"i condemn that"

congratulations, ***hole. [/b][/quote]
What are you talking about?

[peter12]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 8 2004, 05:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 8 2004, 05:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-peter12@Oct 8 2004, 11:15 PM

This coming from probably the MOST unfriendly poster.

I rarely throw the first jab, Peter 12...and if I do, it's usually at someone I've known for a long time.

Besides, everyone knows MMF is more unfriendly than me. :P [/b][/quote]
Thats fair enough. I am not taking a stab at you at all, I just think you are a bit irritable sometimes. But its the Internet, so it really doesnt matter.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by peter12@Oct 9 2004, 02:47 AM
I just think you are a bit irritable sometimes

Seconded.

(notice my Chomsky-esque missuse of the wording :P )

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by peter12@Oct 9 2004, 02:47 AM

Thats fair enough. I am not taking a stab at you at all, I just think you are a bit irritable sometimes. But its the Internet, so it really doesnt matter.

It matters to me.

I probably am a bit irritable sometimes.

I'm stressed out! New job, physically demanding (understatement) 60 hours a week....must...get....sleep.

I'd hate to think people weren't posting their genuine feelings though, making your "it's just the internet, it doesn't matter" phrase meaningful. It shouldn't be like that IMO.

Keep in mind, you've gathered your opinion on me largely in this forum on political issues.....and wow have those ever been emotionally charged discussions with plenty of venom from both sides.

Very few of us can boast of maintaining our civility in the threads on these topics. I certainly can't.

and I want to stress once again, clearly, MMF is the most unfriendly poster here. Clearly.

[Looger]

Displaced Flames Fan,

I mean denouncing something on a message board is a pretty empty gesture.

I mean read half the posts on this thing, people lie through their teeth aboot who they are and what they've done, you don't think people are a little braver with what they speak out against something on a message board?

it's like yelling at a freight train.

makes you look like a moron but luckily no one will really notice.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 8 2004, 09:01 PM
and I want to stress once again, clearly, MMF is the most unfriendly poster here. Clearly.

haha hey! dammit! I skimmed through this thread twice before remembering MMF is me. And you know thats not true I mean me and you have never had a run in.. ah.. I mean me and lanny.. no no.. Reggie and Me.. no not that.. Jordon and I.. no okay, not that one either.. Bingo... umm nope... what about an Oiler fan.. no not that either..

ahhh, screw you!! :P

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by MrMastodonFarm+Oct 8 2004, 11:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MrMastodonFarm @ Oct 8 2004, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 8 2004, 09:01 PM
and I want to stress once again, clearly, MMF is the most unfriendly poster here.# Clearly.

haha hey! dammit! I skimmed through this thread twice before remembering MMF is me. And you know thats not true I mean me and you have never had a run in.. ah.. I mean me and lanny.. no no.. Reggie and Me.. no not that.. Jordon and I.. no okay, not that one either.. Bingo... umm nope... what about an Oiler fan.. no not that either..

ahhh, screw you!! :P [/b][/quote]
I've never had a run-in with you Mr.MastodonFarm