Brian Burke guest speaker at Sports Law Society (UofC)

[Five-hole]

Brian Burke generously donated an hour and a half today to speak at the U of C for the Sports Law society. It was a fantastic session and he spoke very candidly about his career, the NHL, the Flames, and the legal profession. I’ll post a synopsis of what he said but I have 8 pages of notes and will leave some stuff out. Feel free to ask any questions and I’ll try to answer based on what Burke said.

Disclosure: I wasn’t a fan of hiring him but he really won me over today. Passionate, honest, forthright, and very entertaining.

He started off with a joke for us law students: what’s the difference between a hooker and a lawyer? A hooker stops screwing you when you die. That set the tone for the candid discussion that would follow.

He started off with a brief discussion about finding a job in pro sports as a lawyer (or otherwise) that I’ll skip unless anybody’s really curious. He then gave a brief bio which you can skip if you want but it tells you a lot about his approach to the position IMO.

He then gave a brief bio on how he got into the job he had. When he played hockey, his coach was Lou Lamoriello who convinced him (forced him, really) to take the LSAT. Burke wanted to get a Masters in History and teach and coach and Lou convinced him otherwise. When he told his dad eventually that he’d passed the bar, his dad said that was the first bar he’d ever passed.

His first hockey work was representing players. He had a successful practice at this when Pat Quinn convinced him to take a job in Vancouver with an out-of-the-playoffs, losing money team. He said this was a big, big gamble on his part but later spoke about how important it is to take calculated risks in your life.

He then went on to Hartford, which he joked “went so well they’re no longer in that city”. He did mention that moving up from 6th to 2nd to land Chris Pronger was one of the defining moves of his career. His scouts had identified Pronger as a special player, that he had an element of meanness that they really liked. He said the price was very expensive but you have to be willing to pay the price to get the guy you want (more on that later).

Left Carolina because he didn’t get along with the owner and went to work at the NHL (doing Shanahan’s job). Said that Gary Bettman is the smartest person he’s ever met in his life except his dad, and doesn’t understand why people in Canada don’t like him. He’s a brilliant guy and has done so much for the NHL.

When he went to Vancouver he was also a finalist for the position in Atlanta. His friends in hockey were telling him to take the Atlanta job, because “no one would even know you were there for 3 years”, and a lot of people thought Vancouver was going to move. He told a funny story about how he was told that Vancouver would offer him the job at 10am, so he went for a run in Washington and he got lost and missed the call. Vancouver thought he was negotiating with Atlanta. It’s funny how close some of these things can be.

When he went to Vancouver he had to rebuild the business and the hockey team. Vancouver was a publicly traded company that had just lost $36 million dollars, had very poor attendance, and was missing the playoffs. He mentioned that they’re now on a sellout streak that started when he was still there.

He left Vancouver when the team changed hands and his contract wasn’t renewed. He worked in broadcasting for a year before going to Anaheim. He said he was “fortunate” to win the cup in Anaheim and that that wasn’t a loose term. You need skill and luck to win a championship and he managed to have both there. He didn’t say much about his time with the Leafs (until directly asked by a few Leafs fans in the crowd, ugh).

Here the bio ended and he started talking about the Flames in particular and his approach to his position.

He mentioned that the management structure (viz. him as prez of hockey ops with a GM that reports to him) in Calgary is the wave of the future, not just in the NHL but in sports in general. He was interested in the Calgary job because he knows the team won’t be sold and the ownership is stable, he loves the city of Calgary, and he loves the charitable side of the job.

“I go to different places, I fix teams, then I get fired, and then I go somewhere else.” When he began as a rookie GM, he had to ask if he was going to run his teams like everybody else or if he was going to come up with his own vision. He said you don’t win championships by following other people’s plans, you win championships by making your own.

He mentioned that there are 3 pillars to the way he approaches his job:
My teams play an entertaining style
I run my teams like a business
My teams give back to the community

Entertaining Style
Hockey is entertainment, first and foremost. The competition for Flames tickets isn’t with other NHL teams, it’s with the entertainment industry. He wants to make you want to buy a Flames ticket. He doesn’t understand people who run a team who pride themselves on limiting scoring chances. He called it boring and doesn’t understand why anybody would watch it.

Brian Burke teams hit in all three zones. Brian Burke teams don’t trap. And Brian Burke teams trade chances with the opposition.

He said he read Moneyball and it was a load of sh*t. Moneyball is all about working the pitch count, not about entertainment. Who wants to see guys foul off balls? He wants to see stolen bases and home runs. He said it’s a good survival strategy for small markets but you’ll never win a championship with the Moneyball system (and also mentioned that nobody had). He’d rather give people a reason to come to the ball park.

The bottom line is his teams won’t win every game but you’ll want to watch us play.

Run the Team like a Business
This means making prudent financial decisions, spending money wisely, and ensuring that you’re spending your season ticket holders’ and sponsors’ money wisely. He doesn’t want to bury a $5M guy in the minors because he screwed up. Even when the team is wildly successful the team shouldn’t waste money. There’s lots more of this in the Q&A session that follows and I’ll leave it there.

Community Service
His trademark is that my players do more for the community than the next two teams combined. If the player bitches, we get rid of him. He said the difference between an AHL player that no one has ever heard of and an NHL player is one gene but millions of dollars, and they’re exceptionally lucky to be where they are, and therefore they’re expected to give back to the community. He said the community should fall in love with the team before you start to win.

---

He then went on to talk about the practice of law for a bit that I’ll leave out except for this gem. He said, “are you really sure you want my job? The last 24 hours has been hell, dealing with the league over this fight that Vancouver started.” The audience loved that one.

He then finished up his prepared talk with his “life lessons”. First, he said you have to not be afraid to take a chance. Life isn’t a dress rehearsal, you get one shot -- “unless you believe in reincarnation, which I think is a crock of sh*t”. Follow your dream, at least so you can say you tried it.

Second, he said that you’ll only be successful if you work at least as hard or harder than everyone else who wants that position. He said the hallmark of all successful people is that they bust their ass.

Finally, he challenged the women in the room to break down the “last barrier”, which is to get into “talent-based roles” with pro sports teams -- scouting, drafting, management.

--- Q&A ---

This is where it got very interesting for Flames fans.

Q. What’s your biggest challenge when making a signing or trade?
He mentioned he’s often asked what his worst trade is. He said we make tons of mistakes, in particular with the draft. He said they have to bet on 18 year old kids, who discover girls and beer, and they have to project them into an NHL uniform. He mentioned Daigle and Pronger again and said nobody thought Ottawa made a mistake at the time. They thought they got the best player in the draft. But Burke gets Pronger and 10 years later, he’s a genius. He said you always have to roll the dice and there’s no certainty. You have to know the odds and the statistics and know they’re against you and still roll the dice once in a while.

In drafting Pronger, there were a lot of safe picks on the board (mentioned Kariya) but felt that Pronger was going to be the guy that would help them win the most games.

Also mentioned the Sedin trade as a signature move of his career. He said the Sedins were horsesh*t in the World Juniors but his Swedish scout told him to come over and watch them play in the World Championships. That the Swedish team took two 18 year olds on this team was remarkable, so he went. He said he had to split a rental car with 3 Chicago guys to go watch them play to save money. He talked a lot about how much work it was to get the picks and that it was very expensive -- specifically, trading a 1st rounder and Brian McCabe to Chicago for the 4th overall pick. He also mentioned he was trying to get the 1st pick too but Atlanta wouldn’t give it up.

It’s safe to say he’s not afraid to make a splash and I could see something splashy at this year’s draft to put his “signature trade stamp” on this team.

Q. Social Media and the NHL
Said that he tells players that social media and alcohol don’t mix, and specifically to be careful about tweeting about injuries. Burke mentioned that someone else tweets for him because he doesn’t trust himself to use it responsibly.

Q. Injuries and hits to the head -- are they getting worse?
He said that when he played, his goal was to hit you, hurt you, and put you out of the game. One of his proudest moments was when he took 3 guys out of the game with legal hits and didn’t take 1 minor penalty. But now guys deliver dirty hits to the head and that didn’t used to happen.

He also said that the coaching that puts people in vulnerable positions needs to change, e.g. stopping and turning back in. There are things that guys are coached to do now that you can’t do anything but hit them in the head. He said he’s been advocating for a rule change for a “bear hug” which would allow you to get out of the situation without hitting their head or taking a minor penalty.

He really doesn’t want hitting to be out of the game. He said the defining entertainment element to the NHL is that it’s right on the edge, all the time. The NHL sells a full-contact sport. If you start giving 10-game suspensions for any hit to the head even if it doesn’t deserve it, you’ll get hits to the head out of the game but you’ll get hitting out of the game altogether and that would be really bad for the NHL.

Q. NFL and NHL lawsuits and Tort liability for injuries
He couldn’t comment about the NHL’s lawsuit (obviously), but mentioned that the NFL allegations were not just about the injuries but about concealment of medical evidence and that the NHL doesn’t have that situation. He mentioned the NHL is a leader in prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of concussions and feels they’re in a very different position than the NFL. The NHL is a full-contact sport and there will be concussions, and there’s no way around that, but you can do a better job than everyone else in diagnosing and treating them.

He mentioned that Cammalleri is out with a concussion and WILL NOT PLAY until the doctors give the ok, even if he went to them and said “look we really need Mike in the lineup tonight”.

He said the complaint that “hockey is a violent sport” is like a a Matador going, “hey, who let that bull in here?” That’s why most of the athletes chose hockey -- because they wanna hit guys. Go play tennis if you don’t want it.

Q. How upset will you be when the US doesn’t medal at the Olympics?
It was a joke question which he took in stride by saying, “hopefully we don’t have the situation we did in Vancouver where the ref kicked the puck to Jarome Iginla.” He took the opportunity to say a few things about the Olympics and that he loves the tournament. He said Canada is always the favorite at these things, and that if you look at their lineup they can’t do anything but win gold. However, he mentioned that Russia and Sweden should be favorites as well. He said Russia took too many KHL guys but they have home ice advantage and know how to play the big ice. He likes Sweden because they’re always “marvelous” on the big ice and have some really great players.

He said his strategy is to take a “toolbox” team to the Olympics because the top 20 US players can’t beat Canada, Sweden, or Russia. He wants people who are good at specific jobs.

Q. Asked about if he thought he almost built his perfect team with the Leafs
- Told before he was fired that if they missed the playoffs it would be hard to keep him around
- Thinks he’s always entitled to be fired by the owners, but can’t stand to be out of work because he thinks he’s better than some of the other guys who have GM jobs
- (No wonder he fired Feaster …)
- Still likes the Leafs, but thinks they aren’t as fast as last year
- Says the western conference is unbelieveable in the quality of hockey over the eastern conference

Q. Why do you think some kids bust at the draft?
He said they’re projecting 17-year olds. The NFL drafts 22- and 23-year olds and doesn’t have a better success rate. He said injuries, interfering parents, and lack of courage can derail a career but it’s never one thing that causes a kid to bust.

Q. What do you think of advanced hockey analytics?
The person asking the question said he thinks its the future of pro sport and Burke said “really?!” like that was an awfully stupid thing to say. He used his lamppost analogy again. He says that no one has shown him a system and any results that make the team’s scouting any better. He said he’s given 10 grad thesis every year about some system that will improve scouting but none of them never work, and he reads them all. He even challenged us to send them to him. He said hockey isn’t baseball with discrete factual events, they’re essentially random events that don’t repeat and that don’t lend themselves to this kind of analytical system.

Q. Asked about why women haven’t got into the talent-side of pro sports management
He said the reason is that there’s a myth that you have to have played to evaluate players. He says he doesn’t think this is true. He said he’s not a good evaluator of players -- that he’s seen some guys 4 or 5 times that he doesn’t have a read on but a guy like Dale Tallon can see the guy once and know. (Specifically mentioned that he’d be scouting the hitmen tonight and hasn’t got a read on some of their guys yet -- Virtanen probably.)

He said picking out the Sidney Crosbys and Connor McDavids is easy -- it’s the guys you pick in the 3rd and 4th round that can really make or break your team but are way, way harder to scout, and having played doesn’t help you do this.

Q. What do you think of non-traditional hockey markets having NHL teams?
He said their deal with FOX was contingent on having a larger electronic footprint. There was no team in Texas, Florida, or Phoenix. He said that NBC is very, very happy there’s a team in Nashville, 2 teams in Florida, etc. Whether they’re sustainable long term is another question that he doesn’t know. But he said that revenue sharing nearly doubled from the last CBA to almost $250M this year, they’ve cut labour costs in this CBA and excluded some cost items and Florida should be sustainable. He said the Leafs cut a revenue-sharing cheque for $25M-$30M every year.

Q. Asked about recovering from mistakes and what some of his worst mistakes were
He used trading Donald Brashear for Jan Hlavac as his example. He mentioned that Donald Brashear is a concert pianist, which I had no idea about. He said recovering from mistakes is all about fixing them and not making mistakes you can’t fix. He mentioned that another guy he got in Vancouver, who was really pushed by one of his scouts, was a big bust. He fired that scout. But he said that there’s no point in having a staff if you don’t listen to them.

Q. Asked about the Kessel trade (predictably)
He said he leaves (heh) evaluating trades to other guys. He doesn’t do this. He said he never cares what he gives up in a trade, he cares about what he gets. Kessel was his guy and he got him and he doesn’t care if he overpaid (though mentioned in not so few words that he thinks its a win in hindsight). If the guy I want will do for my team what I think he’ll do for my team, I’ll gladly overpay. Very interesting.

Q. Asked about entertainment, media training, and cliche hockey player answers
He said he likes boring answers. He said hockey is an exceptionally difficult sport and it breeds humility and gratefulness. He likes guys who are grateful to be there, and yes, those guys give boring answers. He joked that he’s made a career out of not giving boring answers and he’s in trouble all the time.

Q. Asked about salary retention and buyouts
He said he was pushing for this in the 2004 CBA but it didn’t happen, and called it a “Brian Burke innovation”. He says its good for the fans to see more trades. He mentioned though that NHL buyouts are very expensive relative to the NFL model. He said he’d like to take on some bad contracts for draft picks but mentioned that no market has been set yet because it hasn’t been done. There are no precedents for what $1M in cap space is worth at the deadline.

He rhetorically asked if he’d take on $1-$1.5 at the deadline for a 1st round pick? Probably. He (and thus presumably ownership) are willing to do it but he hasn’t seen good value out there yet. He mentioned the team is budgeted to spend to the cap and are willing to do so if it makes the team better, and that includes buyouts and salary retention.

Q. Asked about fighting
- There’s not a big debate inside the game
- Most people inside the game think fighting has a role
- You’re more likely now to not see a fight than see a fight
- Told Laddy Smid this morning that he emptied the bench with the Flyers farm team 9 times one year
- This is gone now, and fighting is in its proper place
- It keeps players accountable
- We don’t sell fighting, but it’s part of the entertainment package
- Just because my teams fight more than others doesn’t mean we’re selling fighting
- Mentioned Ott, Kaleta, and Cooke as guys who would take over the game (called them “rats”) without fighting
- These “rats” are already a problem

Q. Who will win the Stanley Cup?
Says St. Louis is the best team he’s seen so far but doesn’t believe in teams that have a tandem goalie situation.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

Says St. Louis is the best team he’s seen so far but doesn’t believe in teams that have a tandem goalie situation.

The last sentence is the one that really stood out to me. The league has shifted away from teams needing that true bonafide #1 guy. Teams feel more comfortable going with a 1/1a combo it seems, no true number one guys like there used to be in the 90's.

Interesting.

Don't want to focus on just that quote though, thanks for the summary.

[Ashasx]

You must have been typing like a mad man throughout the session.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

I'm a big fan of Burke. More intellectual honesty than Feaster. Who'd a thunk' it!
He tells it how it is and even though he is a bit of a totalitarian leader of whatever franchise he is at; he seems like a genuinely good person who is blunt and has a real passion for the game, not to mention he has a lot of experience building good teams.

To be completely honest though - I wasnt a big Burke fan when he was in Toronto. Just because...Toronto...

[Table 5]

Wow, what a great write up, thanks!

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The last sentence is the one that really stood out to me. The league has shifted away from teams needing that true bonafide #1 guy. Teams feel more comfortable going with a 1/1a combo it seems, no true number one guys like there used to be in the 90's.

Interesting.

Don't want to focus on just that quote though, thanks for the summary.

Championship teams still have unquestionable #1 goalies, and usually a good young prospect pushing them as their #2.

Quick
Crawford
Thomas
MAF
Niemi

All of these guys, even if they were only proving it in the season they won the championship, were true #1 goalies and not part of tandems.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

The last sentence is the one that really stood out to me. The league has shifted away from teams needing that true bonafide #1 guy. Teams feel more comfortable going with a 1/1a combo it seems, no true number one guys like there used to be in the 90's.

Interesting.

Don't want to focus on just that quote though, thanks for the summary.

I should maybe be careful with the wording because he said "no one has won the cup with a tandem before" and that he wasn't sure about them for that reason.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I should maybe be careful with the wording because he said "no one has won the cup with a tandem before" and that he wasn't sure about them for that reason.

Giguere and Bryzgalov?

Edit - I suppose Bryzgalov only played 5 posteason games in 06/07, but he also had 27 regular season games.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

He said he read Moneyball and it was a load of sh*t. Moneyball is all about working the pitch count, not about entertainment. Who wants to see guys foul off balls? He wants to see stolen bases and home runs. He said it’s a good survival strategy for small markets but you’ll never win a championship with the Moneyball system (and also mentioned that nobody had). He’d rather give people a reason to come to the ball park.

The bottom line is his teams won’t win every game but you’ll want to watch us play.

Heh. Nice jab at Feaster.

[Mattman]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

...by saying, “hopefully we don’t have the situation we did in Vancouver where the ref kicked the puck to Jarome Iginla.”

Okay Burke suuuuuuuure thats what happened

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Championship teams still have unquestionable #1 goalies, and usually a good young prospect pushing them as their #2.

Quick
Crawford
Thomas
MAF
Niemi

All of these guys, even if they were only proving it in the season they won the championship, were true #1 goalies and not part of tandems.

Yeah, fair enough but teams going with a tandem in the regular season more often now then pick their goalie come playoff time and ride him. When Chicago won it with Niemi he actually had played less games then Huet and the end of the regular season. When they won it last year with Crawford he had played 30 games to Ray Emery's 21, that's tandem.

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I should maybe be careful with the wording because he said "no one has won the cup with a tandem before" and that he wasn't sure about them for that reason.

That makes a lot more sense and yes, that's true.

[sun]

Wow, great post. Lots to digest. Thanks for sharing, dude.

[$ven27]

Nice work, however please don't quote the OP.

[Rubicant]

Amazing post, thank you very much for taking the time to do that.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Yeah, fair enough but teams going with a tandem in the regular season more often now then pick their goalie come playoff time and ride him. When Chicago won it with Niemi he actually had played less games then Huet and the end of the regular season. When they won it last year with Crawford he had played 30 games to Ray Emery's 21, that's tandem.

I look at the tandem goaltender the same as the 1A/1B QB situation in in football that if you have two starting QB's that means you don't have a starter. There are for sure exceptions such as Vancouver last year, the Oilers in the 80's with Fuhr and Moog, etc. I think there's a mental aspect and confidence a team develops playing in front of what they consider a top goaltender. Much like how the Flames never seemed to play the same when one of Kipper's backups was in net.

That said depth is important and a contending team needs to have a viable alternative at the position in the case of injury or slump. I still think you need that clear cut #1 guy though.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I look at the tandem goaltender the same as the 1A/1B QB situation in in football that if you have two starting QB's that means you don't have a starter. There are for sure exceptions such as Vancouver last year, the Oilers in the 80's with Fuhr and Moog, etc. I think there's a mental aspect and confidence a team develops playing in front of what they consider a top goaltender. Much like how the Flames never seemed to play the same when one of Kipper's backups was in net.

That said depth is important and a contending team needs to have a viable alternative at the position in the case of injury or slump. I still think you need that clear cut #1 guy though.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the last goalie to get a playoff win not named Kipper is Cujo (sad as that may be)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

I like Burkey. Always one of my favourite interviews as far as GM's go, he's always been a straight shooter.

I like most of his philosophies too. Really much more confident with him leading into the deadline and the draft than Feaster. I like that he'll really go after the players he targets.

[4oh3]

Thanks for the read bud


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[wingmaker]

Amazing!! Thank you so much.

[troutman]

He was a frequent guest speaker at my Sports and Entertainment law seminar at UBC in the early 1990s. What you see is what you get. I liked him.