Neil Young blasts the Alberta government about the Oilsands

[Swarly]

So this all boils down to Neil Young going on tour and figures, quick lets say something controversial so I can stay relevant? Should have just stuck his tongue out and twerked, so much easier.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by fotze

I don't think he has to say anything to stay relevant. Do people actually think he is doing this for that reason? I don't doubt for a second he isn't doing this for altruistic reasons.

Neil's just looking for his 15 minutes of fame...

[Canuck-Hater]

Neil Young doesn't have to say anything to stay relevant. He will always be relevant even after hes dead. The same can't be said for Stephen Harper or Joe Oliver.

[jonesy]

Originally Posted by troutman

Neil drives an electric car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LincVolt

http://www.lincvolt.com/

hahhaa, he has the fuel SHIPPED to him on his travels. likely in a big truck.
so stupid it is hysterical.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Swarly

So this all boils down to Neil Young going on tour and figures, quick lets say something controversial so I can stay relevant? Should have just stuck his tongue out and twerked, so much easier.

Haha, Neil Young sells out the Dome every time he comes through Calgary, most recently in 2012.

This is at Jack Singer concert hall, which holds about 1800 people. I'm upset at his tactics as well, but artists looking to stay relevant don't book a tour of theatres when they can sell out arenas in minutes. He really cares about this.

[DownInFlames]

Troutman is so right. I respect the one or two people in this thread trying to refute his claims. The rest are just bashing his credibility and relevance. He was one of the biggest voices of the hippie movement and still draws huge audiences. To try and discredit his commitment to this cause, and undermine his importance as an artist, only makes yourself look foolish.

I'm not going to defend what he said, only because I didn't read it. I do what all people who complain about celebrities getting on soapboxes should do, ignore them.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

Troutman is so right. I respect the one or two people in this thread trying to refute his claims. The rest are just bashing his credibility and relevance. He was one of the biggest voices of the hippie movement and still draws huge audiences. To try and discredit his commitment to this cause, and undermine his importance as an artist, only makes yourself look foolish.

I'm not going to defend what he said, only because I didn't read it. I do what all people who complain about celebrities getting on soapboxes should do, ignore them.

Then how do you know what he said wasn't complete and utter garbage, made up or out right lies (I am not saying it was).

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Then how do you know what he said wasn't complete and utter garbage, made up or out right lies (I am not saying it was).

I don't. I said I wasn't defending his statements, just pointing out that ad hominem attacks do nothing to refute them.

[PsYcNeT]

I should expand my post on page 1 to size 7 font in all bold, but people will continue to attack the messenger and not the message for time eternal, as long as they disagree with the message, dislike the messenger, or both.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

I should expand my post on page 1 to size 7 font in all bold, but people will continue to attack the messenger and not the message for time eternal, as long as they disagree with the message, dislike the messenger, or both.

Except people have attacked his message, but those posts are conveniently ignored by people (you included) and you continue to focus on those posters who are attacking neil young personally.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

Neil Young doesn't have to say anything to stay relevant. He will always be relevant even after hes dead. The same can't be said for Stephen Harper or Joe Oliver.

Decades ago, Neil Young was already feeling irrelevant and trying to re-establish his relevance when he wrote this lyric (trivia: quoted by Kurt Cobain's suicide note).

My my, hey hey
Rock and roll is here to stay
It's better to burn out
Than to fade away

I don't appreciate Neil's use of inaccuracy and hyperbole in his cause célèbre. He really isn't being fair in his condemnation and mis-characterization of the situation. He seems to be trying to support the blue-collar worker while condemning the suits but doesn't understand that large economic projects such as these are one of the greatest opportunities in the world for social mobility. I think social mobility is one of the most important causes and an indicator of standard of living in modern countries. Of course, hippies were never really for social mobility of the lower classes. For them, it was more about taking the establishment down to their level which I think is counterproductive to civilization.

As far as Neil Young staying relevant whereas politicians won't...what kind of metric are we using here? Politicians and their policies arguably could have more far-reaching decades long impact that a musician. That said, I did not grow up with Neil's music. I play some of his songs but they mean little to nothing to me so perhaps I do not understand what his impact really is.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by troutman

Neil has been blogging about his tour here:

https://www.facebook.com/NeilYoung

Today is going to be a big one. This is, after all, the heart of the business of Big Oil. Here is where the predominently foreign owned corporations have built towering glass monuments to symbolize their extreme wealth and power. We don't feel much love from them. But we do honour their commitment to their cause. My morning wish is that some of them take off their suits today, put on their jeans and come to the concert. If they can take some deep breaths with us and feel the music and feel the emotion of the people, maybe they will also start to feel the beating heart of Mother Earth. Maybe they'll start to see something greater and more powerful than money.

We also honour the men and women who work in the tar sands putting their health and lives on the line No matter what they try to tell you we have never ever wanted you to lose your jobs. We honour your families and your lives. We just want your bosses to clean up the mess that's been made and to stop expansion until they prove that can be done. Stop the empty television ad campaigns and do something real. We all know you are lying. We just want the oil-glazed governments of Alberta and Canada to stop supporting Big Oil at the expense of human rights. Remeber, if they can do this to the First Nations, they can do it to you. Honour The Treaties.

Calgary - come on down to the demonstration. It is gonna rock.

Originally Posted by troutman

The ad hominem attacks are tiresome. Show where his message is wrong. Attacking the messenger is useless.

Your last two posts, troutman. Really!??

[troutman]

Originally Posted by zuluking

Your last two posts, troutman. Really!??

What's the problem, other than your annual drive-by at me?

I do not endorse Mr. Young's blog post, but thought it was newsworthy in the context of this thread. He was expressing his thoughts as he prepared for a gig in Calgary. I am a fan, but I do not believe that makes him more likely to be right.

I really do not know the truth of the situation and remain willing to be educated. A few helpful posts have been made in that direction. I don't care if anyone thinks Neil is a stupid hippie. That doesn't matter.

Neil has blogged more about the media coverage in Calgary. If you are interested, here:

https://www.facebook.com/NeilYoung

[Madman]

Two new radio ads from the website - http://neilyounglies.ca/

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by troutman

What's the problem, other than your annual drive-by at me?

I do not endorse Mr. Young's blog post, but thought it was newsworthy in the context of this thread. He was expressing his thoughts as he prepared for a gig in Calgary. I am a fan, but I do not believe that makes him more likely to be right.

I really do not know the truth of the situation and remain willing to be educated. A few helpful posts have been made in that direction. I don't care if anyone thinks Neil is a stupid hippie. That doesn't matter.

Neil has blogged more about the media coverage in Calgary. If you are interested, here:

https://www.facebook.com/NeilYoung

My apologies. I was merely pointing out the fact that the second post could have been written about the quote in the first post. Not intended to be about you or your views. I guess I should have added some text, but thought it was self-explanatory.

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by Madman

Two new radio ads from the website - http://neilyounglies.ca/

Sounds like more slander and propaganda IMO.

[burn_this_city]

I don't see what's slanderous about either of those statements.

[OldDutch]

I have been looking for this thread in the Off Topic main thread, but just found it here. I was wondering why no one was discussing this, so now I am glad to find it!

Anyways, my thoughts.

1. Neil is not doing this for fame, or to re-invent himself. I think that is the Sun News cop out to attack the man, and not his message. It has be documented that he's driven his electric car up to Ft. McMurray with Darryl Hannah to do a documentary years ago. This is nothing new for him.

2. His message as it comes to the environment is just wrong and is perverted truth, plain and simple. Oil Sands is cleaner than coal by quite a margin on CO2 emissions. Coal is what they are burning in China that is causing all the dirty air, not oil direct from the sands. In fact, if they were to stop all coal and start burning oil their CO2 levels would drop.

3. Oil Sands are of generally two types Open Pit and SAGD. I will disclose that I work for a SAGD company and have been to site numerous times. It looks nothing like a bomb site. In fact small pad areas are cut, the oil is extracted using water, and when the pad is done they grow trees right back on top, you would never know anyone is there. Open Pit does disturb the ground much more, but I think the last stat I saw was .02% of Alberta forest is currently disturbed by all Oil Sands, so the footprint overall is very small.

4. He is claiming to champion native treaty rights, but has turned the conversation to environment. What is it? Is it the natives are getting a raw deal? They want zero development? They want some development? No one is asking about this, instead his rhetoric is environment, so people are countering with his 5 tour buses spewing exhaust. No one is even talking about the very people he is supposed to be helping.

5. US Big Oil and the US Government is more indirectly involved in this than you know. I am not saying Neil now works directly for the man. I am saying he is a pawn. Right now US has a cheap and steady supply of Canadian Oil because we can only ship to Chicago to refine. Keystone and N.Gateway would help us sell to other markets, thus weakening the refiners and US control on our product. So what do you think the US is gonna do...let it happen, or donate to a bunch of Environmental groups to proxy block and upset anything that will strengthen Canada. It is a no brainer that a country that disposes of all competition all over the world wouldn't do this because it is so simple, just donate money and let the hippies block everything and keep status quo. So the band leader accepted $50K from Tides, I would love to see who donates to Tides, follow the money.

6. The dirtiest oil in the world is in Neil's backyard California. No protest there, ever. Strange hunh?

7. The less Oil from Canada is more from dictatorships. Save a tree, oppress another person that is you cold hard reality.

I know some of this may come of a bit conspiracy theory but honestly after what I have seen, it is my opinion of what is happening. We need to realize that Neil is a good talented musician who is a legend, he just happens to be not to bright on this subject but his fame allows for instant credibility and air time. It also makes him the perfect pawn for those who don't want to upset the status quo.

[ranchlandsselling]

Originally Posted by troutman

Neil has been blogging about his tour here:

https://www.facebook.com/NeilYoung

Today is going to be a big one. This is, after all, the heart of the business of Big Oil. Here is where the predominently foreign owned corporations have built towering glass monuments to symbolize their extreme wealth and power. We don't feel much love from them. But we do honour their commitment to their cause. My morning wish is that some of them take off their suits today, put on their jeans and come to the concert. If they can take some deep breaths with us and feel the music and feel the emotion of the people, maybe they will also start to feel the beating heart of Mother Earth. Maybe they'll start to see something greater and more powerful than money.

We also honour the men and women who work in the tar sands putting their health and lives on the line No matter what they try to tell you we have never ever wanted you to lose your jobs. We honour your families and your lives. We just want your bosses to clean up the mess that's been made and to stop expansion until they prove that can be done. Stop the empty television ad campaigns and do something real. We all know you are lying. We just want the oil-glazed governments of Alberta and Canada to stop supporting Big Oil at the expense of human rights. Remeber, if they can do this to the First Nations, they can do it to you. Honour The Treaties.

Calgary - come on down to the demonstration. It is gonna rock.

Wow, so much wrong with this. I'll simply point out that he doesn't know what he's talking about in the first bolded sentence.

Should representatives of GWL, Brookfield, Artis REIT, OMERs, Oxford, CREIT, Cadillac Fairview, H&R Reit, Mannix, Telus, Manulife, Standard Life, Sun Life, HOOP, and god knows what other CANADIAN companies that have nothing to do with the day to day operations of Suncor, CNQ, ECA, CNOOC, Cenovus, Husky, TransCanada, etc. come down to his ignorant pow wow and clean up their mess of, of, of what?

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I have been looking for this thread in the Off Topic main thread, but just found it here. I was wondering why no one was discussing this, so now I am glad to find it!

Anyways, my thoughts.

Nice post but it shouldn't go unchallenged.

1. Neil is not doing this for fame, or to re-invent himself. I think that is the Sun News cop out to attack the man, and not his message. It has be documented that he's driven his electric car up to Ft. McMurray with Darryl Hannah to do a documentary years ago. This is nothing new for him.

2. His message as it comes to the environment is just wrong and is perverted truth, plain and simple. Oil Sands is cleaner than coal by quite a margin on CO2 emissions. Coal is what they are burning in China that is causing all the dirty air, not oil direct from the sands. In fact, if they were to stop all coal and start burning oil their CO2 levels would drop.

I'm ignorant of Neil's actual writings on this but did he really say oil was worse than coal? I highly doubt that. But otherwise this is the this most classic and utterly nihilistic argument that always rolled out. "We're not the problem, those guys over there are the problem!" Stop and think to yourself where that argument leads you to? Nothing. That's where you end up. You wont go convincing the Chinese to act pointing the finger at them. Especially because they aren't responsible for the past 150 years of cummulative GHG emissions that are warming the climate right now. They are responsible on the margin, not for this problem. Huge difference.

And in any case, bringing it down to psychology. This issue is the textbook definition of the tragedy of the commons. Nobody has any incentive to act. So instead they try to blame each other. If we were truly being rational. We'd all recognize that the commons were being depleted rapidly and we'd agree to stop activities in unison. How does that happen? Well you basically have to demonstrate that you're getting your own house in order.

But the oilsands are the reason why we can't get our house in order. Environment Canada has repeatedly demonstrated that the emissions projections out to 2030 are dominated by growth in the oilsands and there's no way we can even level, let alone reduce our emissions. That's basically all the result of the growth of one sector. Yes the climate change issue is WAY bigger than the oilsands. But here in Canada the oilsands are basically THE problem. And it's something we need to get a grip on, not blithely dismiss with the worst of all justifications.

3. Oil Sands are of generally two types Open Pit and SAGD. I will disclose that I work for a SAGD company and have been to site numerous times. It looks nothing like a bomb site. In fact small pad areas are cut, the oil is extracted using water, and when the pad is done they grow trees right back on top, you would never know anyone is there. Open Pit does disturb the ground much more, but I think the last stat I saw was .02% of Alberta forest is currently disturbed by all Oil Sands, so the footprint overall is very small.

Looks may be deceiving. Sure the physical terrestrial impact is smaller, much smaller and in situ recovery looks poised to overcome surface mining for bitumen produced but just a couple things. Just because it looks better doesn't mean it's categorically better. In situ recovery uses more energy than surface mining, meaning it emits more greenhouse gases. It also uses alot more water. By my understanding even with the best technology we use half as much water as oil produced but currently we use upwards of 3 times as much water as oil produced. Some of this water is produced deep, other times its drawn from aquifers or the surface. So it's pretty disingenuous to say, hey look at how cleaner this process "looks". Peel a layer back and in situ is the direct reason why oilsands are getting more GHG and water intensive, in other words, they're making the oilsands become more environmentally destructive.

4. He is claiming to champion native treaty rights, but has turned the conversation to environment. What is it? Is it the natives are getting a raw deal? They want zero development? They want some development? No one is asking about this, instead his rhetoric is environment, so people are countering with his 5 tour buses spewing exhaust. No one is even talking about the very people he is supposed to be helping.

Yes native rights and environmental concerns are completely separate issues...

This is just a weird paragraph that's nonsensical. He's raised $800,000 for affected aboriginal communities on this tour alone. Pretty sure aboriginals with a legal treaty in hand and supported by recent court judgements that their treaty rights had been violated by oilsands developments and environmental destruction was THE reason cited as the violation. This is about the environment. Aboriginal communities who traditionally use the land and river for their economic means are thereby suffering more.

5. US Big Oil and the US Government is more indirectly involved in this than you know. I am not saying Neil now works directly for the man. I am saying he is a pawn. Right now US has a cheap and steady supply of Canadian Oil because we can only ship to Chicago to refine. Keystone and N.Gateway would help us sell to other markets, thus weakening the refiners and US control on our product. So what do you think the US is gonna do...let it happen, or donate to a bunch of Environmental groups to proxy block and upset anything that will strengthen Canada. It is a no brainer that a country that disposes of all competition all over the world wouldn't do this because it is so simple, just donate money and let the hippies block everything and keep status quo. So the band leader accepted $50K from Tides, I would love to see who donates to Tides, follow the money.

Ok we're deep in the Calgary bubble now. This is utter bunk. That environmentalists are somehow pawns in a geopolitical conspiracy to keep the oilsands down. Quit reading that self flaggelating bubkus from Peter Foster, Viviane Krause, and Claudia Cattaneo. It is freaking ridiculous.

The problem with even arguing against this theory is that it's so crazy you can't even really engage it. The idea is that tens of millions were poured into Canadian NGOs over the past ten years to protest the oilsands because it would serve American companies better. If that's the actual case then it has failed miserably. During that time the oilsands growth in the past ten years has more than doubled. The Government of freaking Canada is their biggest supporter and lobbyist. There has been ZERO policy implemented to contain the oilsands since the SGER in 2007 and much more policy to make oilsands development and ship easier. And that the supporters of the oilsands, the corporations, the state owned corporations and all of the other money that has poured into them has mounted to over $100 billion.

Yes... say generously $50 million has been donated to ENGOs what impact has that really had?

Why not play the occam's razor game? What is the simplest explanation to explain why ENGOs are protesting the oil sands and why people even Americans are donating to support that? Because they don't like the environmental and social damage associated with unfettered oilsands development! Wow, what a conspiracy.

Hate that conspiracy. It's batnuts crazy.

6. The dirtiest oil in the world is in Neil's backyard California. No protest there, ever. Strange hunh?

Red herring. California heavy oil isn't being produced to any meaningful volume. Way less than the oilsands.

7. The less Oil from Canada is more from dictatorships. Save a tree, oppress another person that is you cold hard reality.

Ethical oil ridiculousness. This is a callow and intellectually bankrupt argument. In all honesty, judging by the market realities now, it's oil from everywhere at full tilt. Canada isn't supplanting some alternate supply we're just adding to it. There's no offseting dictatorship that Canadian oil is heroically undermining.

I know some of this may come of a bit conspiracy theory but honestly after what I have seen, it is my opinion of what is happening. We need to realize that Neil is a good talented musician who is a legend, he just happens to be not to bright on this subject but his fame allows for instant credibility and air time. It also makes him the perfect pawn for those who don't want to upset the status quo.

Yes it is crazy conspiracy hour.