Neil Young blasts the Alberta government about the Oilsands

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Does it matter?

Why bother arguing against something if the only criteria you feel is needed to refute it is to say "No, this is wrong"?

Make an effort to inform people, don't just be a contrarian.

Why do I have to inform and why can't I have an opinion? Why argue with me when you are arguing for the sake of it?

[MoneyGuy]

Neil Young has as much right to his opinion as anyone here.

I have the right to think he's a misguided jackass.

[Ducay]

As someone currently up in Hiroshima for work, the city itself is basically identical to Red Deer. River valley city surrounded by new suburbs and service companies. Theres no upgraders or flare stacks in the city, just as there are no pumpjacks downtown Red Deer. Only difference is the buggy whips up here.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why do I have to inform and why can't I have an opinion? Why argue with me when you are arguing for the sake of it?

Because you could be quoting Neil Young here...

Psycnet is right; the problem with his post isn't that he's wrong, it's that his premise is mistaken. It's not an argument when you're dealing with an ideologue. It's not a discussion with point and counterpoint. Counterpoints do not matter. There is a narrative that these guys want to support, which is that the oilsands are evil. There is no grey area. Which is great for the news, because it doesn't take much time that way, and people won't get bored and flip over to ET Canada to see what crazy name celebrity couple X gave their new baby.

[Regular_John]

Eh Neil Young is entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us, yes he's got a bigger soap box to speak to it from, but that alone doesn't make him any more right or wrong. I learned long ago to separate artist & their art from their politics.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by jaydorn

Eh Neil Young is entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us, yes he's got a bigger soap box to speak to it from, but that alone doesn't make him any more right or wrong. I learned long ago to separate artist & their art from their politics.

Totally, OT, but great avatar

[northcrunk]

Do people really care what a burnt out hippie who has probably never been to a site? I sure don't. Celebrities are not the most educated people in the world. Sure some are but the vast majority have not even finished high school.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Igottago

How about this quote?

"It looked very big and very impressive. Extremely well-organized. A lot of people were working — hard-working people, who I respect,"

So he's giving a lot more respect to the people working in the industry than is directed back his way.

And what? I havent seen him form a single coherent reason as to why the oilsands are evil.

Maybe they are and maybe they arent but Neil Young wouldnt know the difference if it rolled right over him.

So far this amounts to:

"Neil Young says the Oilsands are bad."

And....? Why? They just are?

If you have an opinion it doesnt matter if its ignorant, biased or uninformed but at the very least say how you came to have it.

[corporatejay]

Pretty great article by the journal. Actually gets to the reality of the debate. Very little nuance this week but they seem to have captured it. (Btw i don't think the poisoning comment was meant literally)

As recently as a few decades ago, nearly 80 per cent of the residents in Fort Chipewyan lived off the land. But activity in the oilsands is migrating north, swallowing up resources and, for First Nations, stifling a way of life. It is true in Fort Chipewyan, farther south in Fort McKay, and on other reserves around the province.

“There is nothing black and white about what is happening,” says John O’Connor, one of two doctors serving native communities in Alberta’s northeastern corridor. “There is no denying industry’s arrival has brought jobs, and that socioeconomic circumstances have improved immensely.

“But it is a dilemma for communities that are losing ground, literally, and losing touch with their culture. In the end it is almost a choice of ‘Do I die by starvation or do I die by poisoning?’

“If industry shuts down, they have nothing. If it continues, they are right in the middle of it. It is a really tough situation that indigenous people in Canada are in.”

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/busin...722/story.html

[GGG]

I don't think it is wrong to dismiss peoples arguements out of hand without providing a counterpoint based on there level of education surrounding an issue. In fact we should do it more. One huge problem is this belief that seems to pervade the media that every opinion is relevant and needs to be discussed. Also that celebrity somehow lends credibility to an opinion.

Neil Youngs opinion is as relevant as mine is. It is not news and should be dismissed out of hand. People should not have to waste time refuting propaganda like this. Same with Jenny Macarthy and her Vaccines. The media should never have given her anytime to speak on the issue because there was only one side. It should have been just scientist after scientist talking about how beneficial vaccines are. There is no need to present the opinon of the uneducated.

If you read the journal article above you have a lot of educated peoples opinions who should be published and not Neal Young's rants.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don't think it is wrong to dismiss peoples arguements out of hand without providing a counterpoint based on there level of education surrounding an issue. In fact we should do it more. One huge problem is this belief that seems to pervade the media that every opinion is relevant and needs to be discussed. Also that celebrity somehow lends credibility to an opinion.

Neil Youngs opinion is as relevant as mine is. It is not news and should be dismissed out of hand. People should not have to waste time refuting propaganda like this. Same with Jenny Macarthy and her Vaccines. The media should never have given her anytime to speak on the issue because there was only one side. It should have been just scientist after scientist talking about how beneficial vaccines are. There is no need to present the opinon of the uneducated.

If you read the journal article above you have a lot of educated peoples opinions who should be published and not Neal Young's rants.

Cult of Celebrity

[CaptainCrunch]

If Neil Young actually did some research into his viewpoints and was even somewhat accurate then he would be worth listening too.

Alberta's Oil causes all the pollution in China, well not really the amount of oil and natural gas that goes to China is pretty much insignificant, I think about 3% of Alberta's energy exports go to China.

Fort McMurray smells like fuel and it burns my throat. Well yeah, but most of that is pretty much because the stuff comes out of the ground pretty much naturally. The natives were using it to waterproof stuff a couple of hundred years ago. Even settlers up there complained about the bitter water and smell

Well to produce Oil sands it puts carbon in the air equivalent to every car on the road every day in Canada. It doubles the carbon footprint caused by cars. Well no actually its 1 to 4 versus cars. Still bad but not as bad as the amount of gas coming out of Neil Young's mouth

I drove my electro caddy up here and didn't use any oil. Yet your bus did, and so did the helicopter that you flew around in shooting stock footage, Oh year while ignoring any of the Green initiatives up there and the reclamation sites. On top of that all of your CD's and tapes were manufactured using fuels and the products are petroleum byproducts. You've jetted around the world hauled semi's plugged your stupid car in. You probably have a carbon footprint hundreds of times the size of the average person.

Neil Young decide to go on a campaign, made up facts like crazy and ignored anything that didn't meet his criteria of the truth. They guys a hypocrite who owns multiple properties and enjoys his celebrity status a little too much and thinks that it makes him influential and clever and someone worthy of looking up to.

This whole thing is pretty much him reading some made up facts, making up some facts of his own, then going out of his way to portray it in the most negative way possible to elicit an emotional response. Great, I get that, but all it makes me think now when I see Neil Young is dishonest. Or in the words of some long passed on Flames management group. Intellectually dishonest.

Go back to playing your guitar Neil. and maintaining all of the houses and properties that you own.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I drove my electro caddy up here and didn't use any oil. Yet your bus did, and so did the helicopter that you flew around in shooting stock footage, Oh year while ignoring any of the Green initiatives up there and the reclamation sites. On top of that all of your CD's and tapes were manufactured using fuels and the products are petroleum byproducts. You've jetted around the world hauled semi's plugged your stupid car in. You probably have a carbon footprint hundreds of times the size of the average person.

If a celebrity (like Neil Young or Al Gore) influences hundreds or thousands of people to reduce their carbon footprint, they have had a net positive effect.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by troutman

If a celebrity (like Neil Young or Al Gore) influences hundreds or thousands of people to reduce their carbon footprint, they have had a net positive effect.

So the ends justify the means.........

[Minnie]

This is making the rounds...

[Tinordi]

http://www2.macleans.ca/2014/01/15/t...e-damage-done/
The Panel has concluded that the Project would provide significant economic benefits for the region, the province, and Canada
The Project will provide major and long-term economic opportunities to individuals in Alberta and throughout Canada, and will generate a large number of construction and operational jobs.
The Panel concludes that the Project would have significant adverse environmental project effects on wetlands, traditional plant potential areas, wetland-reliant species at risk, migratory birds that are wetland-reliant or species at risk, and biodiversity
The Panel understands that a large loss (over 10,000 hectares) of wetland would result from the Project, noting in particular that 85 per cent of those wetlands are peatlands that cannot be reclaimed.
The Panel finds that diversion of the Muskeg River is in the public interest, considering that approximately 23 to 65 million cubic metres of resource would be sterilized if the river is not diverted
The Panel recognizes that the relevant provincial agencies were not at the hearing to address questions about why the Project (which seeks to divert the Muskeg River: author’s addition) is not included in the Muskeg River Interim Management Framework for Water Quantity and Quality;
The Panel concludes that it could not rely on Shell’s assessment of the significance of project and cumulative effects on terrestrial resources;
The Panel notes that a substantial amount of habitat for migratory birds that are wetland or old-growth forest dependent will be lost entirely or lost for an extended period;
The Panel is concerned about the lack of mitigation measures proposed for loss of wildlife habitat…that have been shown to be effective.

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by Minnie

This is making the rounds...

What a stupid meme. By this logic no one should call out the oilsands...

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

What a stupid meme. By this logic no one should call out the oilsands...

It's not that stupid. It's one thing to voice concern about burning fossil fuels, it's another to arbitrarily condemn the process of extracting the fuel, when at the same time you're using it a very high rate.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by zamler

It's not that stupid. It's one thing to voice concern about burning fossil fuels, it's another to arbitrarily condemn the process of extracting the fuel, when at the same time you're using it a very high rate.

I think everyone understands that fossil fuels drive pretty much everything, its built into every facet of our infrastructure as a society. I would argue almost everyone on earth relies on it.

That doesn't mean you are a "hypocrite" if you voice any concerns about it, just because you happen to have driven a car, taken a plane, or used a tour bus.

I've seen this argument thrown back into the face of anyone who has any opposition or negative slant towards the oilsands, whether its a celebrity or a scientist. Its completely irrelevent to the debate.

[Minnie]

Originally Posted by troutman

Neil drives an electric car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LincVolt

http://www.lincvolt.com/

It isn't all he drives. He drives his truck around as well.