Panthers ask for taxpayer money

[sureLoss]

Even though records show that the owners of the Panthers make a profit from arena operations, panthers are asking for more tax payer dollars to help operate the arena.

They also claim the actual hockey team loses $20-30 million a year.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,7806907.story

Under the proposed change, for the 14-year balance of the current contract:

•The Panthers would shed the $4.5 million annual payment; it would be picked up by the county.

•The county would contribute $500,000 a year toward maintenance, and would pay any of the property insurance tab that exceeds $1 million.

•The Panthers would swap the land it has rights to build on, 12 acres south of the arena, in favor of 22 acres on the arena's north side, where the Panthers hope a casino-hotel or some other development could be built and brought onto the tax rolls.

•The Panthers would immediately repay $10.6 million in loans the county granted them in recent years.

•The Panthers would continue contributing $500,000 a year to the Convention and Visitors Bureau.

•The Panthers would commit to investing in hockey team payroll "at a level competitive with the rest of the National Hockey League.''

The last point is hilarious as it implies the Panthers promise to ice a competitive team only if the county agrees to new terms.

[codynw]

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Even though records show that the owners of the Panthers make a profit from arena operations, panthers are asking for more tax payer dollars to help operate the arena.

They also claim the actual hockey team loses $20-30 million a year.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,7806907.story



The last point is hilarious as it implies the Panthers promise to ice a competitive team only if the county agrees to new terms.

Seems like the kind of thing someone does in a debt consolidation deal. The owner is shrewd and probably sees an opportunity in this request. The Panthers arena is way out in Sunrise, which is a suburban area nowhere near downtown Miami. They've built the team around a family friendly atmosphere, and while it's a moderately successful model for a team trying to build a fan base, it hasn't worked in Florida to date. The shift towards a hotel and casino nearby is probably a better move for long term financials, as long as there's a deal between the casino and the team, and since there's very little else built up in that area it could create great tax income on gambling winnings for the county. It could be a win/win and it could be a blueprint for success in Vegas if all goes well.

We might sit here and think this is crazy or ridiculous, but things are just different in Florida and you need to think outside of the box to create a successful franchise.

[btimbit]

Well, as long as they're asking for money might as well move to Quebec City

[Ashasx]

That last point makes me angry.

[strombad]

I really think they would do alright if they had their arena in downtown Miami.

I don't understand why teams place their arena in the burbs. It's ridiculous.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by strombad

I really think they would do alright if they had their arena in downtown Miami.

I don't understand why teams place their arena in the burbs. It's ridiculous.

Lower taxes.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by strombad

i understand why teams place their arena in the burbs. It's cheaper.

fyp

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by strombad

I really think they would do alright if they had their arena in downtown Miami.

I don't understand why teams place their arena in the burbs. It's ridiculous.

I dunno, I won't profess to be an expert, but in my travels there to visit friends, I have found Miami itself to be very ethnic, Latin American, African american, etc.

Ft. Lauderdale is more white, more suburban.

They mostly like the Heat (cause of obvious reasons) in Miami, even the Marlin's in their fancy new stadium has a hard time drawing. The dolphins are somewhat popular, but I wouldn't say the town is in love with them either.

Honestly college football in Miami and Florida itself is huge. Everything else is popular, but for a large city I wouldn't say sports run Miami. It's just a really different place.

So I think it's like the Coyotes, would they do better in Scottsdale or Downtown? Or are they better in suburban Glendale? Hard to say, but I can see why they went there (yes taxes too) but also probably demographics is key.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I dunno, I won't profess to be an expert, but in my travels there to visit friends, I have found Miami itself to be very ethnic, Latin American, African american, etc.

Ft. Lauderdale is more white, more suburban.

They mostly like the Heat (cause of obvious reasons) in Miami, even the Marlin's in their fancy new stadium has a hard time drawing. The dolphins are somewhat popular, but I wouldn't say the town is in love with them either.

Honestly college football in Miami and Florida itself is huge. Everything else is popular, but for a large city I wouldn't say sports run Miami. It's just a really different place.

So I think it's like the Coyotes, would they do better in Scottsdale or Downtown? Or are they better in suburban Glendale? Hard to say, but I can see why they went there (yes taxes too) but also probably demographics is key.

Yeah, not every North American city is like Calgary. A lot of cities, especially the car dominated ones in the south have most of the best dining, shopping, entertainment, etc options in the suburbs. And I think that trend will only grow as telecommuting and suburban office parks continue to be on the rise. 10 years ago, it seemed like the typical white collar worker worked downtown. Now, I'd say half work out of their homes more than half time, others work in a suburban office park or spend most of their time on the road. In fact, I can only name one person in my neighborhood who works downtown full time.

I don't see really see great prospects for a team in southern Florida. They apparently have a lucrative tv deal to boost them up too. What a great scam they are running to bring in 10-20 million a year in tv revenue when they only average 4,000 households watching their games. Add in the tax payer money, and the arena deal, it is almost criminal. I'd like to see a study on how much money gets funnelled from the average citizen of that area through taxes and cable bills to millionaire owners and hockey players just so they can have a hockey team that no one cares about.

[Locke]

Tinfoil hat time:

I think the Panthers are trying to get a sweetheart deal done in advance of MLS and David Beckham moving into Florida with another sports team.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I dunno, I won't profess to be an expert, but in my travels there to visit friends, I have found Miami itself to be very ethnic, Latin American, African american, etc.

Ft. Lauderdale is more white, more suburban.

They mostly like the Heat (cause of obvious reasons) in Miami, even the Marlin's in their fancy new stadium has a hard time drawing. The dolphins are somewhat popular, but I wouldn't say the town is in love with them either.

Honestly college football in Miami and Florida itself is huge. Everything else is popular, but for a large city I wouldn't say sports run Miami. It's just a really different place.

So I think it's like the Coyotes, would they do better in Scottsdale or Downtown? Or are they better in suburban Glendale? Hard to say, but I can see why they went there (yes taxes too) but also probably demographics is key.

Miami is a terrible sports town maybe the worst in the US. They are supporting the current 'dream team' Heat but the moment they stop winning they will leave. The Dolphins were competitive this season almost making the playoffs and the stadium was just full of empty seats. Officially they played at 85% capacity (30th in the league) but as we all know that only means sold seats. They were lucky to get to 75% capacity for any of their games. They build that beautiful new ballpark for the Marlins and they still only averaged 17k in attendance which equated to only 100 more fans per game than the old stadium.

There is nothing the Panthers can do to get better attendance outside of becoming an elite team going deep into the playoffs annually as Miami will only support a winner and just barely at that.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Locke

Lower taxes.

Well, now I know! Thanks!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by strombad

Well, now I know! Thanks!

rico said it better, everything is cheaper.

Lower taxes, in the states that could be anything from State/County/Municipal or, more likely, all 3.

But also, lower land costs.

Its just like in Calgary, if you want a 3000sq/ft home in the beltline it'll cost you $1M (I'm guessing/making this up) but if you just want 3000sq/ft why not buy it in High River if it only costs $300K and you believe in the 'If You Build It They Will Come' mantra? (Scuba Gear Not Included. Obviously)

[MRCboicgy]

Originally Posted by Locke

rico said it better, everything is cheaper.

Lower taxes, in the states that could be anything from State/County/Municipal or, more likely, all 3.

But also, lower land costs.

Its just like in Calgary, if you want a 3000sq/ft home in the beltline it'll cost you $1M (I'm guessing/making this up) but if you just want 3000sq/ft why not buy it in High River if it only costs $300K and you believe in the 'If You Build It They Will Come' mantra? (Scuba Gear Not Included. Obviously)

Atlanta is a great example. The Braves are moving out of relatively new Turner Field into the northern suburbs. They found a majority of their fans live up there and stopped coming to games because it was far, not totally safe, and there was nothing to do afterward.

[Jordan!]

The Jets also got a ton of cash, just saying?

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...239547671.html

[GGG]

I wish each city in North America would get together and agree not to fund any league with revenues in the billions. Its just not neccessary.

As for Arenas in the burbs I suspect undeveloped land around the arena is the reason for them being built. You buy land with nothing on it, get the city to pay for an arena with your contribution being a portion of the land you bought. Then the arena gets built and the land you own around it is significantly more valuable.

In Brooklyn the arena deal was really a guise to expropriate land from poor people and redevelop real estate. Since the arena was a pubic work you could expropriate the land for it and the rest of the included development.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Miami is a terrible sports town maybe the worst in the US. They are supporting the current 'dream team' Heat but the moment they stop winning they will leave. The Dolphins were competitive this season almost making the playoffs and the stadium was just full of empty seats. Officially they played at 85% capacity (30th in the league) but as we all know that only means sold seats. They were lucky to get to 75% capacity for any of their games. They build that beautiful new ballpark for the Marlins and they still only averaged 17k in attendance which equated to only 100 more fans per game than the old stadium.

There is nothing the Panthers can do to get better attendance outside of becoming an elite team going deep into the playoffs annually as Miami will only support a winner and just barely at that.

Can't argue with any of this. I was there when the Dolphins were fighting for the wildcard, and honestly no one seemed to care.

[missdpuck]

I always thought thye should have moved the Panthers to the old Jai Alai place in West Palm or somewhere in west Boca.

[Poe969]

They had to ask tax payers, they have no fans to ask!