Who do we hope ends up GM?

[MissTeeks]

Some bits from Bob McKenzie on TSN Radio:

Hope_Smoke‏@Hope_Smoke19m
Mckenzie "Burke will want to talk to Mike Futa and Brad Treliving. I don't know if teams at this time teams want to give permission"

Hope_Smoke‏@Hope_Smoke18m
McKenzie "the Buffalo process was so long and kept so many people in limbo that organizations may want to avoid granting permission"

Hope_Smoke‏@Hope_Smoke17m
Mckenzie "I've heard that Burke is interested in Darcy Regier, Futa, Treliving and Dave Poulin"

Hope_Smoke‏@Hope_Smoke16m
McKenzie "Burke probably won't hire a GM until the draft. He may hire an assistant GM first"

[nik-]

President picking the Assistant GM instead of the GM picking him?

That doesn't seem right.

[Gondi Stylez]

Maybe promote Connie to temporary assistant gm to help Burke (expand his current role). Hire the right guy at the draft.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by Gondi Stylez

Maybe promote Connie to temporary assistant gm to help Burke (expand his current role). Hire the right guy at the draft.

Conroy seems pretty invested with the Heat, at least for this year.

[Vinny01]

Reiger is not surprising

[Ashasx]

Well, with Regier, we'd never lose a trade again.

Like seriously, the 2 best trading GMs on one team?

Still though, I want somebody who knows how to draft.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

My use of the metaphor was clearly with reference to the description in the cited post of the next GM as a "puppet", with strings attached. No need to be so wooden or literal in your interpretation.

Who said anything about the job description being "traditional"? Rather to the contrary, I expect that the organisational structure in Flames management will necessitate some considerable revision of the next GM's responsibilities from those who have in the past held the position. However, I do not for a moment believe that the next Flames GM will be a Burke "puppet".

What you said illustrates my point. The "GM" title in the NHL carries traditional and customary duties. Those duties include the authority to make hockey operations decisions such as who to sign and making trades. Of course there may be some oversight by someone higher up when it involves committing large dollars or trading franchise players, but GMs are expected to be given the authority to build the team that they see fit. Burke himself has been outspoken about GMs being allowed to manage without much interference. A GM without those traditional duties are GM in name only and could easily hold the title of assistant general manager.

The fact is Burke wanted the GM job. He agreed to take on this role but never for a second was he taking this job without the authority that customarily came with the GM title. A GM who has to run everything through Burke and isn't given the authority to make decisions on his own or given much in the way of deference is essentially a puppet because the GM isn't free to do what he wants to do but have to talk with Burke and reach a consensus. There's a difference between saying "Brian I'm going to take this deal" and "Brian there's this offer that came in and I think it's really good..."

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What makes you think that the GM opening in Calgary is "in title only"? It is a conspiracy theory when there is NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Burke wants to hire anything other than a competent, qualified candidate with the best skill set and the right expertise to fill the role of GM. This is NOT what I would consider a puppet appointment. It is a conspiracy theory when outside observers ignore virtually every statement to the media that Burke has made on the subject of the new hire, and make unfounded assumptions about his intentions and resolve that are clearly in contravention of what he has claimed.

I think the GM opening in Calgary is "in title only" because there is every indication to suggest that the incoming GM will not have the traditional and customary decision-making authority of a GM. If Burke is making all the decisions and the GM is really just doing the "grunt work" involved with the GM job, then the GM is in title only and a puppet because the GM is merely following directions to do things that GMs traditionally and customarily had the authority to do. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

This has been quoted earlier "Burke indicated he would be fine hiring “either a young guy with great promise and maybe some experience, or just a young star that hasn’t been given a chance. That’s the beauty of this management structure – you could literally take a guy out of uniform if you believed in him and turn him loose, and he could avoid those big mistakes that young GMs make.”

Explain to me how a guy fresh out of his uniform is a competent, qualified candidate with the best skill set and the right expertise to fill the role of the GM? I'm not saying the guy can't be competent and have a good skill set but explain to me how someone fresh out of the uniform would be "qualified" have the "right expertise?"

I've said this when Burke got hired. You can easily name Burke GM and Feaster AGM and it would have made no difference except in title only.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If he defers to his scouting staff which has been working on the draft for months now, then there should be no problem at all.

Okay then should GMs never be blamed for poor drafting or poor drafting past the first round if the GM merely deferred to his scouts? Do the Calgary Flames have the type of scouting staff that should be given full authority to decide on their own who to draft? If not, you want someone setting directions for the scouting staff as the draft will impact the future of the franchise.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Feaster and Weisbrod were fired because there is a hell of lot more to the job than scouting and selecting kids at the draft.

I never got the Weisbrod firing. Weisbrod's expertise was in scouting and selecting kids at the draft. He could have been repositioned if the new GM didn't like him. There must have been a conspiracy theory somewhere. That or Burke thinks the last couple of drafts under Feaster and Weisbrod were crap.

[Canada 02]

Darcy Regier would be a great addition

[Muta]

Why was Regier let go again?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by FAN

What you said illustrates my point. The "GM" title in the NHL carries traditional and customary duties. Those duties include the authority to make hockey operations decisions such as who to sign and making trades. Of course there may be some oversight by someone higher up when it involves committing large dollars or trading franchise players, but GMs are expected to be given the authority to build the team that they see fit. Burke himself has been outspoken about GMs being allowed to manage without much interference. A GM without those traditional duties are GM in name only and could easily hold the title of assistant general manager.

The fact is Burke wanted the GM job. He agreed to take on this role but never for a second was he taking this job without the authority that customarily came with the GM title. A GM who has to run everything through Burke and isn't given the authority to make decisions on his own or given much in the way of deference is essentially a puppet because the GM isn't free to do what he wants to do but have to talk with Burke and reach a consensus. There's a difference between saying "Brian I'm going to take this deal" and "Brian there's this offer that came in and I think it's really good..."



I think the GM opening in Calgary is "in title only" because there is every indication to suggest that the incoming GM will not have the traditional and customary decision-making authority of a GM. If Burke is making all the decisions and the GM is really just doing the "grunt work" involved with the GM job, then the GM is in title only and a puppet because the GM is merely following directions to do things that GMs traditionally and customarily had the authority to do. Not sure why that is so hard to understand.

This has been quoted earlier "Burke indicated he would be fine hiring “either a young guy with great promise and maybe some experience, or just a young star that hasn’t been given a chance. That’s the beauty of this management structure – you could literally take a guy out of uniform if you believed in him and turn him loose, and he could avoid those big mistakes that young GMs make.”

Explain to me how a guy fresh out of his uniform is a competent, qualified candidate with the best skill set and the right expertise to fill the role of the GM? I'm not saying the guy can't be competent and have a good skill set but explain to me how someone fresh out of the uniform would be "qualified" have the "right expertise?"

I've said this when Burke got hired. You can easily name Burke GM and Feaster AGM and it would have made no difference except in title only.

Originally Posted by FAN

Okay then should GMs never be blamed for poor drafting or poor drafting past the first round if the GM merely deferred to his scouts? Do the Calgary Flames have the type of scouting staff that should be given full authority to decide on their own who to draft? If not, you want someone setting directions for the scouting staff as the draft will impact the future of the franchise.



I never got the Weisbrod firing. Weisbrod's expertise was in scouting and selecting kids at the draft. He could have been repositioned if the new GM didn't like him. There must have been a conspiracy theory somewhere. That or Burke thinks the last couple of drafts under Feaster and Weisbrod were crap.

Interesting long winded response. Basically what it seems like you're saying is that the GM is going to be a puppet because you've misinterpreted things that have been said and come to conclusions that are yours and yours alone.

All those words, and I still have no idea how you decided that the GM isn't going to be allowed to make his own decisions.

Nor do I even partially understand how you came to the conclusion that Burke simply wants the GM job and has all along. Though, I suspect that one is simply the result of the extra layer of foil you put on your hat this morning.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by FAN

What you said illustrates my point.

No, it really doesn't. At all.

Originally Posted by FAN

GMs are expected to be given the authority to build the team that they see fit. Burke himself has been outspoken about GMs being allowed to manage without much interference. A GM without those traditional duties are GM in name only and could easily hold the title of assistant general manager.

So, you have wierdly concluded that the GM in Calgary will be without the duties and authority "to build the team that he sees fit," and "allowed to manage without much interference." Based on what evidence, I might ask?

Originally Posted by FAN

The fact is Burke wanted the GM job.

Prove it.

Originally Posted by FAN

A GM who has to run everything through Burke and isn't given the authority to make decisions on his own or given much in the way of deference is essentially a puppet because the GM isn't free to do what he wants to do but have to talk with Burke and reach a consensus.

What makes you think that the next GM of the Flames will "have to run everything through Burke," "won't be given the authority to make decisions on his own," nor will he be "given much in the way of deference"?

Originally Posted by FAN

Explain to me how a guy fresh out of his uniform is a competent, qualified candidate with the best skill set and the right expertise to fill the role of the GM? I'm not saying the guy can't be competent and have a good skill set but explain to me how someone fresh out of the uniform would be "qualified" have the "right expertise?"

It is pretty clear that Burke does not intend to give the next general manager unmitigated autonomy, but there is a HUGE CHASM of latitude between full autonomy, and no autonomy. It is pretty silly of you to assume that Burke's position requires that he assume all the responsibilities of a general manager, when we really have no clear idea about how the new managerial structure works. In actual fact, I think that Burke and the Flames are working on building the organisation much like the Blues were built. To that end, Burke is probably fashioning his own position in the same mould as John Davidson, who—while hands on—DID NOT insist on deference from his own very highly competent and successful general manager. The ST. Louis model is actually very attractive for precisely the "puppet model" that you are claiming for Burke' approach. Doug Armstrong was eased into his current position. If the Flames end up hiring a young guy with potential, then I expect that his own career path will follow much the same track as Armstrong, with Burke to help him reach his full potential.

Originally Posted by FAN

I've said this when Burke got hired. You can easily name Burke GM and Feaster AGM and it would have made no difference except in title only.

He could have named himself GM, BUT HE DIDN'T. As to what difference it would make, you frankly have no idea.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Muta

Why was Regier let go again?

Because he constructed a really terrible team in Buffelo. Do not want Regier and do not want Poulin... other names are fine.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

People are over analyzing the GM, President, non GM thing. Let's call a spade a spade, it's all just labels ect..... This "new" format the Flames went to doesn't really change much. The day Burke was hired, Feaster essentially took a demotion to what is traditionally a Assistant or Associate GM role.

Burke is the President of Hockey for the Flames. That means, regardless of title, he is the "final" stop, the "head honcho" of anything on ice related for the Flames. In most NHL organizations, that is the GM. All the Flames have done is create a new position where the "Head of Hockey Strategy" (therefore the head of scounting, drafting, trading, coaches, etc...) actually has a role and title that allows him to do less of the tedious day to day work of a GM and focus more on planning short and long term. Could be a good thing in my mind. But lets not kid ourselves about Burke have a secret agenda.........why wouldn't he want that job. Just like in any organization, hopefully things are collaborative and all levels get a say, but at the end of the day strategic direction comes down from the top layer, and for the Flames hockey matters that's Burke, for most other NHL clubs, that's the GM.

Anyone who takes our GM job knows it's going to have less autonomy than any other GM job in the NHL, and they will be driving Burke's direction, hopefully with some say of there own. That's why I think we will get a more junior guy, someone who wants to get the GM job on his resume, but also might feel like he could use a little more coaching or seasoning from someon with Burke's experience.

[UKflames]

@Textcritic - So you are saying that the fact Burke has the power to fire (Feaster & co) and hire whoever he chooses is no indication that the new GM isn't going to have to run everything through Burke first. If that isn't the case and the new GM will be able to build this club as he see's fit, what exactly is Burkes role, why do we need him? Is he just going to be around for friendly advice when needed like a grandparent, I don't think so.

I think there are a lot of you who are so in love with the addition of Burke to the club that you are the ones wearing the tin foil hats, so it doesn't let any reality in, let alone out.

[FlamesFanStrandedInEDM]

Lets create a Reality TV show where prospective and past General Managers try out for the position through participating in a 30 Team Fantasy Hockey League.

As ridiculous as it sounds, I would watch it....

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by UKflames

@Textcritic - So you are saying that the fact Burke has the power to fire (Feaster & co) and hire whoever he chooses is no indication that the new GM isn't going to have to run everything through Burke first. If that isn't the case and the new GM will be able to build this club as he see's fit, what exactly is Burkes role, why do we need him? Is he just going to be around for friendly advice when needed like a grandparent, I don't think so.

I think there are a lot of you who are so in love with the addition of Burke to the club that you are the ones wearing the tin foil hats, so it doesn't let any reality in, let alone out.

I think the denial is coming mostly from those who are so scared that Burke might be driving the Flames hockey ship. News flash for those folks...Burke is the Captain of the Flames Hockey Ship. He is the leader of this organization from a hockey perspective, and has all the power associated with.

That doesn't mean that he will require the new GM to run everything by him, but I'm sure there will be clear direction on what level of deals can be made without his blessing, and certainly anything major going on with the club Burke will know about, and can and will veto if he doesn't like.

Anyone who was hoping otherwise is crazy. The Flames have gone in a direction where they feel they need 3 hockey minds driving this ship versus the traditional 2 you get from a GM and Ass. GM combo. Any GM that takes the Flames role will know they aren't top dog from a Hockey perspective with the Flames like they would be in an organization that doesn't have the President layer, and it will definetly impact who will be interested in this role, but I don't think it's a bad thing. If you think Burke driving strategic direction of this club is a bad thing.........then you should be worried and it won't make a lick of difference who they hire as GM, because if you don't like Burke as captain, a new GM isn't going to change anything.

[Sgrath]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Well, with Regier, we'd never lose a trade again.

Like seriously, the 2 best trading GMs on one team?

Still though, I want somebody who knows how to draft.

Slightly off topic but:
I think this draft deadline will make or break Burkes reputation at trades.
Has Burke ever been in a situation of trading from such a clear and almost universally accepted weak position. With the way this roster, especially the vets, is performing I would expect the first response from another GM to a Burke trade offer to be "how's a bag of pucks sound".

[FAN]

Originally Posted by strombad

Nor do I even partially understand how you came to the conclusion that Burke simply wants the GM job and has all along. Though, I suspect that one is simply the result of the extra layer of foil you put on your hat this morning.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Prove it... He could have named himself GM, BUT HE DIDN'T. As to what difference it would make, you frankly have no idea.

It seems like you're the one with no idea:

Fired Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke wants to run another NHL team soon. “Tomorrow if I can,” Burke said on Saturday when asked if he wanted to become a GM of another team. “I don’t think I’m done in hockey. I’m definitely in the job market, no question.”

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/..._tomorrow.html

Burke said he initially rebuffed the Flames because he wanted to be GM, not a president and had to get “his head around” a different role.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...onference.html

According to the "deal" Burke has with the Calgary Flames, Burke is not going to be the GM.

On why he did not want to become the permanent general manager

I thought that would be the first question. First off, it’s not the deal I made with Ken King and the ownership group here … I’m not going to welch on that deal now, and say, all of the sudden, ‘A-ha! Now I want to be the GM.’ It would certainly cast a suspicion on my motives in making this change, too, if I now say, ‘well, I’m the new GM.’”

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2013/...algary-flames/

So you can say I'm reading in between the lines too much or that I'm expounding some conspiracy theory, but does anybody believe Burke didn't want to be the GM of another NHL team after he was fired by the Leafs? He wanted the job. He didn't get it with Calgary and he accepted the new role with what he probably felt as greater job security.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What makes you think that the next GM of the Flames will "have to run everything through Burke," "won't be given the authority to make decisions on his own," nor will he be "given much in the way of deference"?

When Burke was hired he said this: "If Jay has something to do, we’ll talk about it, try to reach some kind of consensus."

Originally Posted by Textcritic

In actual fact, I think that Burke and the Flames are working on building the organisation much like the Blues were built. To that end, Burke is probably fashioning his own position in the same mould as John Davidson, who—while hands on—DID NOT insist on deference from his own very highly competent and successful general manager. The ST. Louis model is actually very attractive for precisely the "puppet model" that you are claiming for Burke' approach. Doug Armstrong was eased into his current position. If the Flames end up hiring a young guy with potential, then I expect that his own career path will follow much the same track as Armstrong, with Burke to help him reach his full potential.

Actually you can ask Blues fans about this, the consensus seem to be that Davidson was not a rubber stamper but a guy who called all the shots. Pleau was on his way to retirement and simply handled the day to day activities. Armstrong wasn't "eased" into his current position as much as he was hired as Pleau's heir apparent. Once Armstrong was named GM Davidson took a step back. This isn't some secret.

Regardless, there is a difference in personality and experience here. Davidson doesn't have GM experience and like other teams with this structure, Davidson has to rely on someone else both for advice and to perform some of the GM duties. Burke on the other hand is an experienced GM and experienced in running an NHL team's hockey operations and is fully capable of handling every aspect of a GM's job. Burke doesn't NEED anyone to advice him or perform duties traditionally and customarily associated with a GM. Burke has always been outspoken about how HE is the guy making the decisions. Burke has never been a guy who tells his staff to make the decisions but rather you have to convince him that he's the right move, which I think is the way it should be if you have a competent leader. But ya you really think Burke would defer to others as much as Davidson did and does?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Muta

Why was Regier let go again?

He made some bad decisions once his owner gave him a blank cheque and told him to ice a contender now. Before that Regier built a team on a tight budget that sat in the top third of the league for much of the last decade. And before he was turfed he set the table with a wealth of assets for a proper rebuild. He won't be out of a job for long.