[PGT] TBL 2 CGY 0 - shutout again

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by New Era

Fans need to recognize this rebuild is going to happen with several waves. There will be an exchange of vets for young guys. The UFAs will leave and young guys will step in. The holes will be filled through free agency. We just have to wait for the waves to come in. Cammalleri, Stajan, Stempniak, Westgarth, B. Jones, Russell, Butler and Smith will all be gone by season's end.
.

How can you possibly have Russell in that list? The guy has arguably been our 2nd best defenceman behind Gio this year. No chance in hell that he'd be shipped out.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by direwolf

How can you possibly have Russell in that list? The guy has arguably been our 2nd best defenceman behind Gio this year. No chance in hell that he'd be shipped out.

Think about what you're saying. Russell was keeping a 28th place team in the 26/27 spot.

He has been a nice surprise this season but is still a bottom pairing guy with upside. He just looks like a million bucks when o'brien, smith, Breen etc are in the lineup around him.

The right offer comes along and you pull the trigger. By right offer I mean a 3rd rounder or higher equivalence.

[Knut]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think about what you're saying. Russell was keeping a 28th place team in the 26/27 spot.

He has been a nice surprise this season but is still a bottom pairing guy with upside. He just looks like a million bucks when o'brien, smith, Breen etc are in the lineup around him.

The right offer comes along and you pull the trigger. By right offer I mean a 3rd rounder or higher equivalence.

What ??? You would move Russell for a lottery ticket with a 25% chance, or less, of playing in the NHL ??

Russell is the perfect guy to sign to a 2 year contract at a reasonable rate (2.5). HE gets a chance to log big minutes and up his value, while the Flames get a chance to see if he keeps developing. THat is worth way more than a 3rd rounder.

[puckluck2]

Cammalleri is -21 and that really shows. He has been awful for quite some time. He is a big part of the problem IMO. Doesn't do much out there.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

He has been a nice surprise this season but is still a bottom pairing guy with upside. He just looks like a million bucks when o'brien, smith, Breen etc are in the lineup around him.

ROFL

The right offer comes along and you pull the trigger. By right offer I mean a 3rd rounder or higher equivalence.

Your first goal with Russell is to re-sign him. If that can't happen, then yes, look to move him. But honestly, we're better off with Russell than a third rounder.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think about what you're saying. Russell was keeping a 28th place team in the 26/27 spot.

He has been a nice surprise this season but is still a bottom pairing guy with upside. He just looks like a million bucks when o'brien, smith, Breen etc are in the lineup around him.

The right offer comes along and you pull the trigger. By right offer I mean a 3rd rounder or higher equivalence.

If the Flames get into the habit of trading solid 26 year old defensemen for 3rd round picks, we will become the NY Islanders and settle into a 20 year rebuild.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by timbit

I agree with a lot of what you posted prior to this.

However, has Burke not stated that he is not particularly enthralled with the NHL prospect potential in Abbotsford?

Please correct me if he did not say that.

This has to stop. He never said that.

He said he didn't know how many real prospects there are in Abby. That is partially because he hasn't had much time to get familiar with them.

It can also simply mean that he is being careful - don't count your chickens until they hatch (apologies for the cliché)

[Tinordi]

Burke wasn't making that statement to say that he wasn't familiar with the prospects. He was making that statement as a general assessment of the prospect base in Abbotsford. That there were alot of unknowns and not alot of definitive players.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This has to stop. He never said that.

He said he didn't know how many real prospects there are in Abby. That is partially because he hasn't had much time to get familiar with them.

It can also simply mean that he is being careful - don't count your chickens until they hatch (apologies for the cliché)

Considering they've never taken a proactive approach to dealing players at the deadline, I don't think it happening one time constitutes a 'habit'.

Calgary finally moved players at the deadline last year and look what happened: we are all excited about the picks we made as a result of those trades.

[JobHopper]

I think I would be okay with Ron Wilson for the simple reason that he has plenty of NHL experience.

It has to be an experienced NHL coach though for me.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by direwolf

How can you possibly have Russell in that list? The guy has arguably been our 2nd best defenceman behind Gio this year. No chance in hell that he'd be shipped out.

Pretty simple actually. His performance exceeds any other year he's played. To keep him you have to believe that this performance is the new normal for him. I don't. I also look at acquisition cost versus the potential benefit of moving him. We are likely in a big advantage in benefit versus cost. The whole idea for rebuilding teams is to get better over the long term by dealing away short term assets. Russell is a very short term asset. Using your same logic the Flames shouldn't deal Stajan because he's been our best center. The Flames should deal away Cammalleri because he's been our best goal scorer. The Flames shouldn't trade away Stempniak because he's been our best character player. You have expiring contracts you have to evaluate where they fit in the long term plan and deal accordingly. None of the players on expiring contracts fit in the team long term, especially Russell.

[$ven27]

Originally Posted by JobHopper

I think I would be okay with Ron Wilson for the simple reason that he has plenty of NHL experience.

It has to be an experienced NHL coach though for me.

no

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by New Era

Pretty simple actually. His performance exceeds any other year he's played. To keep him you have to believe that this performance is the new normal for him. I don't. I also look at acquisition cost versus the potential benefit of moving him. We are likely in a big advantage in benefit versus cost. The whole idea for rebuilding teams is to get better over the long term by dealing away short term assets. Russell is a very short term asset. Using your same logic the Flames shouldn't deal Stajan because he's been our best center. The Flames should deal away Cammalleri because he's been our best goal scorer. The Flames shouldn't trade away Stempniak because he's been our best character player. You have expiring contracts you have to evaluate where they fit in the long term plan and deal accordingly. None of the players on expiring contracts fit in the team long term, especially Russell.

Well I guess we'll just a agree to disagree then. I don't see him as a short term asset at all. From what I've seen from him, the guy is a hell of a hockey player, and I highly doubt he'll be moved. But anything can happen during a rebuild, so who knows. Personally I hope Russell sticks around.

[YogiBerra]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Cammalleri ideal on the 3rd line? LOL!

Wow, interesting perspective. I don't think you'll find many people that agree with you on that. Cammalleri is a top two line player only IMO. He doesn't have the defensive play, board play, etc to be an ideal bottom two line player.

You have some very unorthodox or perhaps crazy ideas about what places are ideal for players. The only team that has Cammalleri as an ideal 3rd liner is an all star team.

I'm not saying that he should be out there filling a grinder role trying to shut down the opposing teams top line i mean he should be receiving 3rd line minutes at even strength. He is not strong enough defensively or at driving possession to deserve more than ~12 minutes a game at even strength. At this point in their careers i would call hudler and cammalleri comparable players except in my opinion hudler is better at retaining possesion of the puck and setting up the play making him better at even strength. The last time hudler was on a decent team he averaged about 12 minutes even strength a game and played 3rd line minutes. So unless you think Babcock has crazy ideas too i don't think my thought process is out of line here.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Think about what you're saying. Russell was keeping a 28th place team in the 26/27 spot.

He has been a nice surprise this season but is still a bottom pairing guy with upside. He just looks like a million bucks when o'brien, smith, Breen etc are in the lineup around him.

The right offer comes along and you pull the trigger. By right offer I mean a 3rd rounder or higher equivalence.

Completely disagree. The guy has proven himself one of our top 3 defencemen. When he's bottom pairing on this team we'll have a very, very good defense.

IMO Russell has outshined Wideman. Russell is the 3rd most important defenceman for us to keep IMO.

You're underrating how good he's been. Nothing bottom pairing about his play this year, he's been as good as Brodie and is still fairly young.

Trading one of our top 3 defenceman for a 3rd would be going full Oiler style.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This has to stop. He never said that.

He said he didn't know how many real prospects there are in Abby. That is partially because he hasn't had much time to get familiar with them.

It can also simply mean that he is being careful - don't count your chickens until they hatch (apologies for the cliché)

I don't know why people get defensive about this. It is what it is.

He just got through an evaluation period, in which he decided the flames had not drafted or traded very well (2013 draft class excepted). Do you really think he forgot to stop by Abbostford in that process?

It's fair to debate what he meant by 'pure prospects' - few potential stars? top 6 players? Few nhlers ever? - but it wasn't a neutral or positive comment. Not brutally negative either though. Given burkes rep as a straight shooter And his comment that finding size on the bottom 6 is easy, I think it means he didn't see a lot of top line talent in Abby.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

Pretty simple actually. His performance exceeds any other year he's played. To keep him you have to believe that this performance is the new normal for him. I don't. I also look at acquisition cost versus the potential benefit of moving him. We are likely in a big advantage in benefit versus cost. The whole idea for rebuilding teams is to get better over the long term by dealing away short term assets. Russell is a very short term asset. Using your same logic the Flames shouldn't deal Stajan because he's been our best center. The Flames should deal away Cammalleri because he's been our best goal scorer. The Flames shouldn't trade away Stempniak because he's been our best character player. You have expiring contracts you have to evaluate where they fit in the long term plan and deal accordingly. None of the players on expiring contracts fit in the team long term, especially Russell.

Completely disagree.

Stajan is much older and established in his career. Forwards usually mature and fully develop much earlier than defencemen. Defencemen often mature right around the age Russell is now. So I think it is reasonable to believe that what Russell has shown this year is the new normal.

In addition the depth at both positions is totally different. Without Stajan we still have Monahan, Backlund, Colborne, Knight, Street, Reinhart, Byron, B Jones who can all play centre. If you get rid of Russell, Butler and Smith we don't really have many guys ready to step in and replace them.

Russell has been one of our top 2-3 defencemen all year. He's a great fit long term and obviously a much better fit long term than Cammalleri, Stajan, or Stempniak. Hope we re-sign him. Your statement that Russell especially doesn't fit long term makes absolutely no sense to me. He's right in that age range we want to be adding and keeping players.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Completely disagree. The guy has proven himself one of our top 3 defencemen. When he's bottom pairing on this team we'll have a very, very good defense.

IMO Russell has outshined Wideman. Russell is the 3rd most important defenceman for us to keep IMO.

You're underrating how good he's been. Nothing bottom pairing about his play this year, he's been as good as Brodie and is still fairly young.

Trading one of our top 3 defenceman for a 3rd would be going full Oiler style.

Hmm, there might be confusion on what I meant.

He's clearly more than a bottom pairing guy for Calgary, and he's a top 3 defender for Calgary in terms of his defense, but that says more about the situation the Flames are in than it does about his abilities. If Kris Russell is one of your top 4 guys, you are going to be leaking goals and chances. I don't think his offense is better than Wideman, Giordano or Brodie, which puts him as Calgary's 4th best defender at this point. He's also the smallest of that group which is already smallish in it's own right.

He provides the same thing the other three guys do offensively but to a less substantial degree and while he has shown a lot for Calgary this year, he's not tremendous defensively either. Thinks the game well but lacks physical attributes that would make him more reliable.

Is he more than a bottom pairing guy for a top 15 or top 10 team in the league? Not in any more than spot duty in my opinion, which is how Calgary was able to land him for what's looking like a relative bargain right now. I also don't think he really makes much of a difference to the offensive or defensive prowess of the team, he's just a better option than Butler.

It would be a mistake not to explore the trade potential of Russell, if moving him turns a 5th into a 3rd, I think you take that deal and suggest to Russell and his agent that you look forward to talking with them in the offseason.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Hmm, there might be confusion on what I meant.

He's clearly more than a bottom pairing guy for Calgary, and he's a top 3 defender for Calgary in terms of his defense, but that says more about the situation the Flames are in than it does about his abilities. If Kris Russell is one of your top 4 guys, you are going to be leaking goals and chances. I don't think his offense is better than Wideman, Giordano or Brodie, which puts him as Calgary's 4th best defender at this point. He's also the smallest of that group which is already smallish in it's own right.

He provides the same thing the other three guys do offensively but to a less substantial degree and while he has shown a lot for Calgary this year, he's not tremendous defensively either. Thinks the game well but lacks physical attributes that would make him more reliable.

Is he more than a bottom pairing guy for a top 15 or top 10 team in the league? Not in any more than spot duty in my opinion, which is how Calgary was able to land him for what's looking like a relative bargain right now. I also don't think he really makes much of a difference to the offensive or defensive prowess of the team, he's just a better option than Butler.

It would be a mistake not to explore the trade potential of Russell, if moving him turns a 5th into a 3rd, I think you take that deal and suggest to Russell and his agent that you look forward to talking with them in the offseason.

Wideman has a better shot but Russell is a much better skater and puck rusher IMO. Both are good at outlet passing.

Russell has a better shot than Brodie IMO and better offensive instincts when in the offensive zone. Both Brodie and Russell are awesome at rushing the puck and our offense clearly takes a hit when one of them is out because our transition game is at its best when Brodie and Russell are getting zone entries themself.

Giordano and Russell I'd say are pretty close in terms of PP ability. I think Russell is better at rushing the puck up the ice himself but Gio has improved in that area.

As for defense I think Russell is more solid than Wideman. I'm not sure he's that far behind Brodie in defense either.

It is problematic that we have a lot of the same type of defender. Brodie, Russell and Billins are all either small or slight. And the problem is that Wideman and Gio aren't giants either. Burke is right in that we need some beef in our top 4 to complement those guys.

It just seems to me that Russell is much more valuable to us moving forward than a 3rd rounder. We need depth at defense and look to be losing Smith and Butler this year. I think retaining Russell is important. Now if someone offered a 2nd rounder that I might consider. I doubt anyone would.

I think we'll be getting enough picks from dealing guys like Cammalleri, Stajan, Stempniak and Butler.

[Vinny01]

First flames game I didn't watch this season. I luckily got the game spoiled for me before I got home to watch it on the pvr. These shutout losses suck. Flames are closing in on bottoming out like everyone expected. I am excited for some trades and AHL call-ups