[News] USA Olympic Roster announced

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Honest Question:

What proof is there that the Leafs didn't use Advanced stats and what Advanced stats would have shown that David Clarkson was a bad pickup?

From what I can see David Clarkson actually tends to perform well when looking at advanced stats and is even one of the stronger Leafs when looking at Advanced stats this season.

I actually haven't looked into Clarkson too much. Maybe there is a case for him on advanced stats, the popular sentiment out there though is that the stats didn't support his contract but I'll be honest, I haven't looked into it.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Funny you should mention that.

Iginla's bad possession metrics were the canary in the coalmine on the trade him crowd. Were we ruthlessly manageing the Flames with stats and scouting we'd likely have identified Iginla rapidly deteriorating complete game and sold high on him 3 years ago. That's the utility of the stats.

But yes, Kotalik had a higher corsi, but was still the 10th ranked forward ahead of only 3rd and 4th liners (and Iginla). So uhh, what was your point?

You needed advance stats to realize that a player in his 30s was getting worse?

Kotalik wasn't better than Iginla in 2010. Are you arguing differently? If so, I guess that's all we need to know.

But if you concede that Iginla was a better player than Kotalik, why was his Corsi worse? Why is Kane's Corsi worse than Bickell's today?

Did the Flames win the Phaneuf trade because of White's impressive advanced stats? Why did Phaneuf just get a 49M contract and White isn't in the league then?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Bruce Garrioch ‏@SunGarrioch

Bobby Ryan says apology from US hockey is "nice" but that's the extent. He hasn't spoken to Brian Burke and doesn't have interest either.

Why the hell won't Ryan talk to Burke? I know that if I thought that someone had publicly embarrassed me, and they knew that I was upset by what was said, then I would welcome the attempted gesture to reach out and set things right.

Having said that, this whole thing has gotten ridiculous. It is bewildering to me that people are taking offence to this, let alone turning it into full blown front-page material.

[19Yzerman19]

Really, the Clarkson signing wasn't a bad signing because he's a bad player, it was a bad signing because it was too much money for too much term. I.e., the consensus was he'll be roughly worth his cap hit in years 1-2 but nowhere close as time goes on. That wasn't really based on stats, other than those that show that power forwards with similar games have a tendency to decline more quickly once they cross 30 than, say, your skill guys. That's a "time will tell" thing. Complaining about the Clarkson signing so far is mostly complaining about how much he's been suspended.

The main Leafs' decision that was panned pretty universally from a fancystats perspective was buying out Grabovski in favour of re-signing Tyler Bozak. Those stats suggested that Tyler Bozak isn't particularly good at hockey, isn't worth 4+M, and certainly isn't remotely close to a first line centre, and that everyone is better at everything when playing with Grabovski as opposed to Bozak, including Kessel. Leaf fans scoffed at this and cited the eye test for the proposition that it was the right decision.

[Sylvanfan]

Do the advanced stats developed for the NHL game really all apply to the game that will be played in the Olympics on the larger ice? I would think faceoffs which should lead to puck possession would. But how do you make the appropriate adjustments for the different size ice...different angles? Even a guy who's a good possession guy on NHL ice, may not be the same on the rink with different dimensions.

Plus even the Oakland A's the Sabremetrics kings from Baseball, have won exactly 0 playoff series using that format. In a one game winner takes all scenario, perhaps you need to use the left brain and find guys with some of the traits that are tougher to quantify.

[Fire]

In my opinion Bobby Ryan is acting a bit like a baby in this situation. I'm hoping he didn't real understand the context of Burke's comments.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Having said that, this whole thing has gotten ridiculous. It is bewildering to me that people are taking offence to this, let alone turning it into full blown front-page material.

It's only because it involves Brian Burke, and that the Toronto media still has a vendetta against him for how he dealt with some of the media there. If it had involved anyone else it would not have been widely reported; heck other guys said bad things about him, and yet only Burke is getting slammed for his words. Do you think anyone will bring up the fact that Burke was Ryan's biggest defender or that in the end he wanted him on the team? Of course not, since they don't want to calm the situation down. They're going to continue pushing the intensity quote, but nothing else just to continue generating buzz.

Also doesn't help that it involves a guy in a Canadian market. If Ryan was playing in some sleepy southern NHL team it wouldn't have been given close to this much coverage.

[DOOM]

Silver is being a baby.

No wonder he got left off the team with the amount of crying he has done so far.

[trackercowe]

I bet Ryan would have been the first guy given a call if there was an injury to someone in the top six. Has that been ruined now that this has blown up? I don't think the two sides will be able to reconcile by then.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by fotze

How do you make that right, though. If you say that your mate is 'terrible in the sack, but you love them nonetheless', saying 'sorry, you weren't supposed to hear that' is going to make it worse.

Yes it was in a certain context but no one on earth wants to be told they have zero intensity (even with positives being said), let alone a star hockey player.

Its like getting a performance review, it could be all positive except for one negative thing. That review gets posted to the whole company, I'd be choked because everyone now know this. It would be embarrassing.

...or magine this possible scenario, what if Burke had never let him know his intensity was poor and this is the first he heard about it. i.e. why wouldn't you tell me that in many of our closed door meetings.

Guaranteed this is not the first time he has heard this.

Sucks for the player to be embarrassed like that publicly, but this has been something speculated or rumoured about him for awhile and is part of the reason he got a ticket out of Anaheim. Tremendous shooter who just doesn't have that top end competitive drive. Comparable players are probably guys like Spezza and Jeff Carter in that regard. When you watch him play enough, intensity is definitely something that is lacking routinely from him. Based on their selections, intensity and reliability seems to be the final judging criteria, in and of itself an interesting piece of information.

When it came to the bubble players on team USA, Byfuglien, Yandle, Ryan, Oshie, Saad, Johnson, it seems that intensity was the deciding factor for Johnson and was the feather in the cap that Saad had over Ryan and Oshie. these things, as presented in the articles, seemed to be near unanimous amongst the group as well. This isn't the case of a rogue GM filling the room with hot air and going against the grain. Pretty much all of them seemed to be in agreement on the personnel and the criteria for judging them right from the start.

That is very, very telling.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Do the advanced stats developed for the NHL game really all apply to the game that will be played in the Olympics on the larger ice? I would think faceoffs which should lead to puck possession would. But how do you make the appropriate adjustments for the different size ice...different angles? Even a guy who's a good possession guy on NHL ice, may not be the same on the rink with different dimensions.

Plus even the Oakland A's the Sabremetrics kings from Baseball, have won exactly 0 playoff series using that format. In a one game winner takes all scenario, perhaps you need to use the left brain and find guys with some of the traits that are tougher to quantify.

You can't use stats to measure leadership and the characteristics of a winner. Actually you can by looking at which teams win in the playoffs more than not. It's not an exact science as you saw with the Penguins last year picking up Iginla, Morrow, etc for the playoff run but you need to have guys that can raise their game when it counts and there are a lot of great regular season players that can't pull that off.

960 spent the whole lunch segment talking about this. Must be a slow time of the year as this IMO is barely newsworthy.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

I bet Ryan would have been the first guy given a call if there was an injury to someone in the top six. Has that been ruined now that this has blown up? I don't think the two sides will be able to reconcile by then.

I doubt it. It's not like Burke and Team USA have any ill-will towards Ryan. What was thought to be a more private straight-shooting conversation was directly quoted. They'll make their decisions based on who they believe will be the best player to help them win just like they did before....this time maybe without Burnside in the room.

On Ryan's side, sure he's understandably upset for missing the selection and having the things said about him printed. But I'm sure he would happily join them in Sochi if asked. And he'll have something to prove about his intensity too, almost a bit to storyesque if that happens.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Fire

In my opinion Bobby Ryan is acting a bit like a baby in this situation. I'm hoping he didn't real understand the context of Burke's comments.

He probably hasn't had a chance to have someone read the whole article to him yet. You know, because he's illiterate.

[bubbsy]

not sure why people are faulting Ryan....

He is in NO way at fault for anything here. He didn't sign up for team USA contention, he didn't go barking that he wasn't picked. Out of almost nowhere, the media released direct quotes from NHL GM's, including the guy that drafted him, that basically attacking him as a player and his passion for winning, a weak vocabulary and his ability to spell....

The fact that burke/poille are annoyed seems to point to the media in the room indicates that they were expecting that being granted access to such meetings comes with a level of discretion.

Either you blame burke for being too blunt knowing media was in the room, or you blame the media for being more careful in what they quote in the article.

Bobby Ryan has done nothing wrong here.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Calgary under Feaster was one of the first teams to have a 'stats guy' and they made ridiculous moves left and right.

Calgary's "stats guy" is hardly that though. After he got hired he was contacting the same basement bloggers you all laugh at to get a primer on advanced stats.

He was a video guy who the Flames wanted to look into advanced stats. That seems absolutely ridiculous for a team with as much money as the Flames (hire two experts in each field), but it is what it is.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You can't use stats to measure leadership and the characteristics of a winner. Actually you can by looking at which teams win in the playoffs more than not. It's not an exact science as you saw with the Penguins last year picking up Iginla, Morrow, etc for the playoff run but you need to have guys that can raise their game when it counts and there are a lot of great regular season players that can't pull that off.

960 spent the whole lunch segment talking about this. Must be a slow time of the year as this IMO is barely newsworthy.

Doesn't your example basically show that there is no way to do this? The Penguins acquired two guys with an old reputation of being able to elevate their game (in spite of the fact that neither had played in the playoffs in years).

If there are all these players out there that can elevate their game in the playoffs, why aren't they doing it all season long? If they can just magically become a better player at will why don't they just do so and make millions more dollars?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

not sure why people are faulting Ryan....

He is in NO way at fault for anything here. He didn't sign up for team USA contention, he didn't go barking that he wasn't picked. Out of almost nowhere, the media released direct quotes from NHL GM's, including the guy that drafted him, that basically attacking him as a player and his passion for winning, a weak vocabulary and his ability to spell....

The fact that burke/poille are annoyed seems to point to the media in the room indicates that they were expecting that being granted access to such meetings comes with a level of discretion.

Either you blame burke for being too blunt knowing media was in the room, or you blame the media for being more careful in what they quote in the article.

Bobby Ryan has done nothing wrong here.

It is not Bobby Ryan's fault, but doesn't mean that people can't think that Ryan is whining a little too much about some quotes.

Johnson, Yandle, and others had some harsh things said about them as well and they handled it much better than Ryan.

[vilzeh]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It is not Bobby Ryan's fault, but doesn't mean that people can't think that Ryan is whining a little too much about some quotes.

Johnson, Yandle, and others had some harsh things said about them as well and they handled it much better than Ryan.

The point is it was Burke who said it, he is the guy who drafted Ryan to NHL & mentored him.

[renny]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It is not Bobby Ryan's fault, but doesn't mean that people can't think that Ryan is whining a little too much about some quotes.

Johnson, Yandle, and others had some harsh things said about them as well and they handled it much better than Ryan.

Honestly, the comments about Bobby Ryan weren't as harsh as the Yandle comments. In fact, Burke actually compliments Ryan in the same sentence, he says he lacks intensity but that he's a game breaker. The second part of that sounds to me like a compliment if I've ever heard one.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I haven't been following the thread much, so not sure where the convo has gone, but felt like making a comment on this Bobby Ryan/ Burke piece.

I'll admit, I'm usually pretty good with Burke's outspokenness but when I first saw the quote and Ryan's reaction I was ready to come in here and say I agreeded with Ryan and say that Burke's crossed the line. While I agree getting performance review is a part of life, and there is nothing wrong with the comments Burke made and telling Ryan them, I had an issue with them being made in public in this case. And the reason being, is because in this situation, there is nothing Ryan can do about it or any benefit being made by making them public. St this point, Ryan can't take it as a public message, up his intensity and make the team. So making the comment publicly does nothing but poor dirt on the guy after you cut him, not fair and does nothing but embarras him. Comments like that should only be made publicly if the person being talked about has an opportunity to action. For example, if Burke calls out a Flame in the media or says something harsh, that's ok, that's part of the business and a tool Burke can use, because that member of the Flames organization can respond, do something about it in upcoming games. But saying that about a USA player after cuts have been made, not helpful.

But what I didn't realize, is that Burke's comments weren't ones he made in a press conference or interview post cuts. At first I didn't realize he said these comments in a talent review with the rest of the brain trust talking about the choices they need to make. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, it does get complicated, given the press was in attendance, so then I become torn. As a fan, I want the behind the scenes access, and I don't want it to be filtered, but I also think it sucks that Ryan's "performance review" gets made public after he can't action it. But I think I'm landing on that NHL players get paid so much for their craft, and part of that is because of the public exposure, and in this case Ryan needs to understand that Burke said these comments behind closed doors, and it's different then if he just showed up at the conference and ripped him.