[News] USA Olympic Roster announced

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Table 5

"He added that Burke tried contact him on Wednesday, but Ryan hasn't called back."

Straight-shooter or not, it looks like even Burke realizes he needs to do a little damage control because of his comments.

Whether honest or not, if it hurts a kid you know well, it's never a bad idea to do a bit of mending.

[Voodooman]

Originally Posted by strombad

It doesn't concern me at all. Jack Johnson is just as valuable to a team as Bobby Ryan is. Neither are game breakers.

Myself? I'd take Ryan, but it's not like we're talking about two infinitely different players in terms of quality. As well, looking at the Ducks situation, they likely could've used Johnson more. Positionally, he was the better call.

If we're speaking of idiotic things, then how about this line of thinking that there is some reality where Burke and these players need to get into fist fights? Grow up. If either of Ryan of Buf needed to "knock his block off" because he said one wasn't intense and the other was improving his fitness, well, that's laughable.

The best part about the whole Burke discussion is that the people ragging on his criticisms for being insulting can't help but call him names. Really intelligent way of making a point,

I believe Mr. Burke himself started the whole fist fight conversation when he made the "rent a barn" comments. And if you don't think some of these guys wouldn't take these comments personally enough to want to confront Mr. Burke (which I will call him since you are offended by any other title), I don't think you understand the midset of a pro athlete, or really, a lot of people. His comments weren't "valid criticism", they were derogatory, insulting, and in all likelihood, made to ensure they would be included in the article. Maybe violence isn't the answer, but in the world of pro hockey, it'd be a possible outcome.

Of course, saying that a 30 goal scorer isn't a game breaker, and that Bobby Ryan and Jack Johnson are the same level of player, perhaps your understanding of pro hockey isn't as high caliber as you think. Bobby Ryan would be in any country's conversation for the Olympics, but it's only due to the US's total absence of depth at D that Jack Johnson is even considered.

By the way, if "get off my high horse" was on your list of new year's resolutions, maybe you can try again next year.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

This is hilarious. Have you seen St. Louis' legs? He's probably in better shape than the 20somethings being selected. The guy is a freak of nature, and it's insane that anyone takes issue with his foot speed.

You think I meant his actual legs?

His skating has never been great and now he is 37 years old. So yes I don't care how many muscles he has on his legs if he is a step slow then I would prefer someone who is a better skater and better two way player.

And Matt Duchene is a much better defensive player than Hall and I am someone who consistently defends Hall and his defensive game.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Ryan and Johnson are a tier apart. One is one of the worst top 4 defencemen in the league the other is an elite goal scorer scoring 30 goals four seasons in a row. Saying you should have drafted Johnson over Ryan is insane.

Lombardi was quite vocal about having Johnson on the team and not a big voice for Ryan should King fans be worried?

Bylsma thought Martin and Orpik were key guys to have should Penguin fans have concerns?

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Tavares - Crosby - Giroux
Duchene - Stamkos - St. Louis
EStaal - Getzlaf - Perry
Benn - Toews - Bergeron
Hall - Thornton

I love that line up. I take that group to Russia in a second. If Mike Richards or Nash make this team at the expense of Benn or Duchene, I'm gonna be a little bit upset.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Voodooman

I believe Mr. Burke himself started the whole fist fight conversation when he made the "rent a barn" comments. And if you don't think some of these guys wouldn't take these comments personally enough to want to confront Mr. Burke (which I will call him since you are offended by any other title), I don't think you understand the midset of a pro athlete, or really, a lot of people. His comments weren't "valid criticism", they were derogatory, insulting, and in all likelihood, made to ensure they would be included in the article. Maybe violence isn't the answer, but in the world of pro hockey, it'd be a possible outcome.

Of course, saying that a 30 goal scorer isn't a game breaker, and that Bobby Ryan and Jack Johnson are the same level of player, perhaps your understanding of pro hockey isn't as high caliber as you think. Bobby Ryan would be in any country's conversation for the Olympics, but it's only due to the US's total absence of depth at D that Jack Johnson is even considered.

By the way, if "get off my high horse" was on your list of new year's resolutions, maybe you can try again next year.

[Tinordi]

To me this demonstrates Burke's inability to remove his biases or personal narratives about players. Lombardi makes a solid defense of Yandle in that article using real stats and experience playing against Yandle. Burke just dismisses it because he "knows better."

That's very concerning. To turn this team around we need the best hockey minds making the most informed decisions not some old time "hockey guy" going by his gut. The league has evolved considerably in the past 15 years with the best teams using all of the information available to them to make roster decisions. The margin of error is so slim that we afford to be rolling the dice. We need to be informed with data and impartiality on what makes success (possession and skill) not some bygone adherence to a narrative about "size" and "intensity."

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by moon

Lombardi was quite vocal about having Johnson on the team and not a big voice for Ryan should King fans be worried?

Bylsma thought Martin and Orpik were key guys to have should Penguin fans have concerns?

Didn't read that part but if you're seriously considering Martin, Fowler and Orpik then I guess Johnson certainly deserves to be in the conversation.

[kipperiggy]

Haven't read through the entire 12 pages but my first reaction is that the team is fairly young, most particularly on D. Think that the stellar goaltending line-up (whoever plays) might have to steal a game or two.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I'm wondering if the people who are questioning the Fowler pick have actually watched him this season.

Top pairing on the top team in the league, which includes getting the toughest minutes and getting the most shorthanded minutes. He's not going to be a shutdown guy but you wont need to shelter him from scoring-threat lines (like say every Canadian line).

On the other hand you got Yandle who's behind OEL and Michalek who never touches the ice on the PK because he's just not that great defensively.

And yet they are only separated by 2 points when it comes to scoring.

[bubbsy]

on the big ice, where offense can often be tough to come by, i would have thought a guy like yandle would be considered the #7 guy, as a PP specialist/bottom pairing guy, over the likes of orpik/martin.

If this thread is any kind of precedent, i can't wait for the debate when team canada announces their team. Should be awesome!

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by moon

You think I meant his actual legs? His skating has never been great and now he is 37 years old. So yes I don't care how many muscles he has on his legs if he is a step slow then I would prefer someone who is a better skater and better two way player.

Please, for the love of God, someone else take this. I'm at a loss.

[vilzeh]

mooned

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Right, he's absolutely the main reason they're so bad, because there are no other players on the Oilers, just Taylor Hall. If you put Taylor Hall on the Penguins they'd be a lottery team.

Do people think for even half a second before they post? Hall's two way game is no better or worse than Matt Duchene's and he's on basically everyone's roster, for good reason. Having every forward be a Selke nominee is a good way to lose 3-2 hockey games. Someone has to make things difficult for Ovechkin, which is why Toews and Bergeron are going (among other reasons). But not everyone has to be that guy. Someone also has to burn right past Olli Maata and rip one short side on Rask to put the game out of reach. That's Hall, that's Duchene, that's Stamkos.

Stop overthinking it and take your best players.

Are you an Oilers fan? Do you even watch Hall? When the Oilers win the odd game he looks great but when they lose (a lot of the time) he coasts and turns the puck over. I have never seen a guy try to beat multiple defenders on his own so often. I'm not saying one day he won't play for Team Canada but he's not ready yet.

He's no different than Ryan in that his overall game isn't there although I don't believe the US has a surplus in talent that they can overlook a perennial 30 goal player but it appears that the decisions are made by committee so it's not like one guy makes the list and there obviously is something in Ryan's game that some team builders in hockey don't like. If they win gold or silver nobody will care who got left off.

[19Yzerman19]

I'm not an Oilers fan. I don't even think Oilers fans are Oilers fans at this point (this is my favourite Hockey video from last month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DIFeOkD_dc ).

I watch the guy plenty though, and his speed and finish is undeniable - he's also an underrated playmaker. His play away from the puck is weak, but that's not why you take him. You take him to put pucks in the net. Taylor Hall playing 14 minutes a game isn't going to lose the tournament for you. He's absolutely comparable to Ryan - they can both be game breaking players, but the difference is that Ryan's weakness, his foot speed (which is of increased importance on large ice) is Hall's biggest asset. So their rationale at least makes some sense, and even so, I think it's ludicrous that they left Bobby Ryan off the USA team.

Re: my lineup, I'm not exactly worried that if you put Hall out with Stammer and St. Louis that he's going to ignore the fact that he's playing with the reigning Art Ross winner and possibly the most lethal scoring threat on the team and try to do everything himself. They'll get the puck. It makes far more sense to me that in attempting to defend against those two players, the opposition gives Hall too much space and he skates right past them. No matter who your defense pairing is, they have to be nervous about facing that line, and if you send your best against them, who's going to stop Crosby and co?

Also, note that in any event his spot is easily enough filled by Duchene if he's not working out there. EDIT: after thinking about it, you know what I compare this rationale to? If Russia had decided to pass on taking Bure to Nagano because he wouldn't backcheck.

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I'm not an Oilers fan. I don't even think Oilers fans are Oilers fans at this point (this is my favourite Hockey video from last month: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DIFeOkD_dc ).

I watch the guy plenty though, and his speed and finish is undeniable - he's also an underrated playmaker. His play away from the puck is weak, but that's not why you take him. You take him to put pucks in the net. Taylor Hall playing 14 minutes a game isn't going to lose the tournament for you. He's absolutely comparable to Ryan - they can both be game breaking players, but the difference is that Ryan's weakness, his foot speed (which is of increased importance on large ice) is Hall's biggest asset. So their rationale at least makes some sense, and even so, I think it's ludicrous that they left Bobby Ryan off the USA team.

Re: my lineup, I'm not exactly worried that if you put Hall out with Stammer and St. Louis that he's going to ignore the fact that he's playing with the reigning Art Ross winner and possibly the most lethal scoring threat on the team and try to do everything himself. They'll get the puck. It makes far more sense to me that in attempting to defend against those two players, the opposition gives Hall too much space and he skates right past them. No matter who your defense pairing is, they have to be nervous about facing that line, and if you send your best against them, who's going to stop Crosby and co?

Also, note that in any event his spot is easily enough filled by Duchene if he's not working out there. EDIT: after thinking about it, you know what I compare this rationale to? If Russia had decided to pass on taking Bure to Nagano because he wouldn't backcheck.

We already have plenty of excellent players who can put the puck in the net who aren't defensive liabilities. Pass.

[bubbsy]

i'm willing to take my harsh criticism of burke's comments back. I thought these statements were made to the media directly, which it seems they were not.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

i'm willing to take my harsh criticism of burke's comments back. I thought these statements were made to the media directly, which it seems they were not.

Yeah they are harsh when you read them on their own, but once you read them in the context of the article they are much better.

[Sylvanfan]

I don't see Carolina too much...can someone tell me what makes Justin Faulk so special that he makes the US team without any question? From what I remember he's a reasonably smooth skater who can move the puck but by no means is an offensive dynamo. Perhaps his corsi is thru the roof and he's playing the toughest competition in the NHL to explain why his +/- is always negative.

I wonder if Burke may have overlooked that on the bigger ice the truculent game is tougher to play. Also if he had some of the Gretzky syndrome where he was reluctant to change things up in Milan and left some younger players off the roster who were playing better at the time. Defenceman like Orpik are not as effective on the bigger ice as they are in North America. Canada brought guys like Foote and Regehr to Milan and the team went it's final 3 games without scoring a goal.

On the smaller ice suface you can bring the bigger guys who are better at fighting thru space or defending close to the net. But on the larger ice I think you really need to emphasis positional play and mobility. Also not just straight ahead speed, but also agility and acceleration. A guy like St.Louis may not burn up and down the wing...but he can dart in and out of open space to make a play and with more room can have more time to make plays. Defensively a tough stay at home guy maybe doesn't have the extra step to staple Hemsky into the boards...a guy who can keep the angle and keep him to the outside and get his stick in the lanes to prevent passes to dangerous area's becomes more effective.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Didn't read that part but if you're seriously considering Martin, Fowler and Orpik then I guess Johnson certainly deserves to be in the conversation.

I think this statement in light of your other ones in this thread is showing why you are over reacting here.

There is some truth to what you're saying about Burke being a bully, etc., but I think your concerns about what this means for the direction of the Flames organization are totally off base.

I think Ryan is a fantastic goal scorer, without any other attribute or intangible that is in the same stratosphere as his goal scoring. Being dispassionate, indolent, or inattentive are horrendous qualities to have in a short, best-on-best tournament. Canada made a similar mistake taking Bertuzzi in Turin. At the time, PPG big body player a year and a half removed from 40+ goals and 90+ points, but a player that never should have been picked for that team, and who eventually helped to sink that team's chances for a medal.

Ryan doesn't have the question marks Bertuzzi did at the time, but there are still question marks about his competitive drive and consistent, reliable effort. Burke wasn't close to the only one with this belief, either.

If you look at some of the other selections left off the team, you'll probably see similar traits. Byfuglien, you never know what you're going to get from him in terms of attentiveness and compete. He's a dominating player when he is 'on', but there is precious little track record to indicate he can do that for longer than a couple of games at a time, and with the exception of that amazing game in Vancouver, not much of an indication he can do it on command, either.

If Orpik, Martin and Fowler are there, then definitely Jack "Muh Farkin" Johnson deserved to be in the conversation as well. He might be the 4th out of the 4, but, then again, what would Johnson look like paired with Kris Letang, with Crosby, Dupuis and Kunitz in front of him compared to what he has in Columbus?