Mayor Dave steals our money so he can harrass bums, hobos, and other transients!

[theJuice]

Interesting thread, and one of the few that I actually went and read all of the posts, made for an entertaining 10 minutes.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

If you are referring to me then that's not what I said.

Not buying it. That's EXACTLY what you said:

If you hold down a steady job and can afford all these things you are lucky to be in that position instead of one of the many that suffer on the streets for reasons that you clearly don't understand.

You are lucky. Not better.

If you're going to be an apologist, at least be a man and admit it upfront.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Not buying it. That's EXACTLY what you said:



If you're going to be an apologist, at least be a man and admit it upfront.

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I think it's pretty obvious that "luck" has something to do with how our lives turn out.

I consider myself "lucky" that my mammy wasn't an illiterate 16 year old girl when I was born. I consider myself "lucky" that I wasn't born with fetal alcohol syndrome. I consider myself lucky that my old man made enough loot to keep me clean, clothed and oblivious to how people who aren't as "lucky" as I was.

If you're going to be an unconscious dick, at least be a man and admit it up front.

[jolinar of malkshor]

No ones doubting that some people get dealt better hands in life than others. But the simple fact is that people have choices to make in life and what ever thry choose, good or bad, they must live with the consequences of thier choices and actions and not try to pawn off the consequences of thier actions on to others.

Now as been mentioned MANY times throughout this tread a large portion of homeless people are afflicted with mental illness. The majority however do not have schizophrinia. It is a mix of all kinds of mental illness. And since 1 in 4 people in society will be afflicted with a mental illness once in thier life, I dont see how this is much of an arguement. If people are using the arguement that they have mental illness and they DONT have choice or DONT have the ability to cahnge thier future, why isnt 25% of the population on the streets due to mental illness?

And dont tell me its because only the most serious cases end up on the street, because that is not the case. Many of these people are fully aware and capable of being productive members of society.

Would people quit making excuses for them. Please.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

And dont tell me its because only the most serious cases end up on the street, because that is not the case. Many of these people are fully aware and capable of being productive members of society.

Would people quit making excuses for them. Please.

Well, you can put your hands over your ears all you want, but it is true.

Yes, 1/4 people suffer from a mental disorder at some point in their life time, although that includes ones which are less severe than others. Many homeless people on the street in fact have multiple disorders at the same time. I don't think you've ever had any mental health issues because you'd know they come in significantly varying degrees.

Think about it. Do you actually think people enjoy living on the street? Would you want to live on the street begging for change? No? I'm sure 99% of this board with agree with that. So why do all these people live on the street then? Because something isn't right upstairs. It is not correct to think it is ok to live under a cardboard box for the rest of your life. These people have some of the worst cases in society.

At some point, they passed the point of no return. Most of these people need rehab from drugs and alcohol or intense medication in order to become functioning members of society again.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Key words, need rehab for drugs and alcohol. Both personal choices.

And let me tell you something else there are FAR more people with SEVERE mental illness who are not on the street than who are.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Key words, need rehab for drugs and alcohol. Both personal choices.

And let me tell you something else there are FAR more people with SEVERE mental illness who are not on the street than who are.

I'm sure there are more people not living on the streets with more severe mental illnesses than people on the streets. One difference however... the ones on the streets don't have the medication they need to function in life. Left untreated, they cannot be productive members of society, period.

Let me ask you something, what do you think came first, the problems with Alcohol or the homelessness. In many cases it was the homelessness first and then the alcoholism - turning to drugs and alcohol in some ways is a form of self medication. It temporarily releives your mind of your problems.

Allow me to explain some of the barriers to getting back into the workplace for these people, of course, you might actually know this if you've ever talked or worked with a homeless person.

1) No Alberta Health coverage: Pretty hard to pay the fee every month for these people, not to mention without this card it denys you access to health services in Alberta. Some people could be significantly helped by checking themselves into say the in-patient clinic at the foothills hospital, but without coverage, you'd be denied.

2) No Birth certificate: As someone mentioned before in this thread (although jokingly), this is actually a real big problem. If they can't find your birth certificate, that means No Social insurance number, which means you legally cannot work in Canada.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Think about it. Do you actually think people enjoy living on the street? Would you want to live on the street begging for change? No? I'm sure 99% of this board with agree with that. So why do all these people live on the street then? Because something isn't right upstairs. It is not correct to think it is ok to live under a cardboard box for the rest of your life. These people have some of the worst cases in society.

While this is likely true for a number of people; that is having mental issues; I'm thinking more don't because getting through today is easier than trying to make yourself a 6 month plan and then sticking by it. Then tomorrow you get through that day, and then the next; never making a long term plan. Instead thinking that some day your ship will come in.

All of a sudden days turn into years, and the person is left in the same position they were before.

It's like an addiction; you know in the back of your mind what you have to do to change your life; and making that first step is a giant leap. It's not that they want to stay on the street; it's just easier to put off that giant step until tomorrow.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I have to disaggree with you on a few points. In my opinion substance abuse has been in the lives of these people for many years. At the begining they are able to manage there abuse. But like all abusers it becomes a downward spiral. Secondly, if these peopel are not making money they do not have to pay for health premiums. Again, the programs are in place to help these people, they choose not to participate in them.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Have you ever known someone with schizophrenia? Ever met someone with it who isn't taking their medication?

Many of these people have almost completely lost touch with reality and can't function in life. They need medication and mental health care services. They are so far gone that they don't know where to go for help and don't seek it.

Obviously there are varying degrees of Schizo, but some of the worst are living on the streets right now. You can't just expect these people to go to work every day.

You don't even have to take it as far as schizophrenia. People with depression that aren't able to get meds are just disabled and unable to function in the world.

[Red]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

And many of them DO have jobs. Its not enough though to get off the streets.

You think 7 bucks an hour at Wendys is going to be good enough to get you off the street?

They could get a roomate or two.
Students do it, immigrants do it, why can't the working homeless?

When there's a will there's a way.

The truly disabled homeless must be really ticked off. They go to the shelters, mustard seed etc and have to share the very little the government gives them with healthy strong young adults.
That is the most disturbing fact about the homeless in Calgary.

[browna]

Not to bring religion into this, but the old saying "The Lord helps those who help themelves" rings pretty true here.

Or, call it Karma, or a higher state of living. etc

Having worked downtown for 10 years now and lived downtown for a year, I have seen it all...and yes, there are more panderers, more agressive panderers and, the same "panderers" as there was 6 or 7 years ago.

Most panderers don't want to help themselves...truly. Or, are professional panhandlers, supported by the $$ they get from suckers everyday.

Those with mental deficinies, as sad as it may be, also have to help themsevles..chances are high that they've refused help or are not truly committed to help from various social services. How long is society supposed to hold thier hand when they repeatadley don't want thier hand to be held?

It appears there are enough work type programs to build skills, offered by social outlets in this city.

Also, the corner of 12 Ave and Centre St, you see guys in work boots, waiting througout the day, waiting to be picked up by someone looking for semi-skilled work. Not lazing around, harassing area residents and those working in the area on a daily basis.

The guys working on and selling the homless paper are also attempting to make a fair living to pull themselves out.

As has been mentioned, there is a fine line between homeless, and panderers...all homeless aren't panders, but most panderers are homeless. ...and if you support the panderers, it gives them no motivation to pull themsevles out and become a more skilled and motivated (and can be argued, better) person then they are.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Not buying it. That's EXACTLY what you said:



If you're going to be an apologist, at least be a man and admit it upfront.

Yes what you quoted is what I said. But hear's what you said I said

"someone thinks someone else who has struggled their whole life to scrape by and now has a decent living got there by luck. "

that's not what I ever said. I never said anything about someone who has struggled their whole life that now has a decent living. That's a different situation. I'm talking about those of us that had a pretty normal life and the opportunity to succeed without much obstacle.

If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Good call Browna

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but I think it's pretty obvious that "luck" has something to do with how our lives turn out.

I consider myself "lucky" that my mammy wasn't an illiterate 16 year old girl when I was born. I consider myself "lucky" that I wasn't born with fetal alcohol syndrome. I consider myself lucky that my old man made enough loot to keep me clean, clothed and oblivious to how people who aren't as "lucky" as I was.

If you're going to be an unconscious dick, at least be a man and admit it up front.

It wasn't you who said it, so you can keep your worthless, apologist opinions to yourself.

Someone saying that a guy who was born behind the 8-ball and scraped his way to the top did it all by luck is extremely arrogant and shows what a real stupid ###### he really is. I for one, am puzzled why you want to defend statements like those.

Now, please do us a favor and go stick your finger in a light socket or go play on the highway, and let the adults in here have a decent conversation.

[V]

Ok, you're an idiot. It's one thing to misquote someone, but then to start freaking out over it, well it doesn't make you look good, that's for sure.

[Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Ok, you're an idiot. It's one thing to misquote someone, but then to start freaking out over it, well it doesn't make you look good, that's for sure.

Read post #38 again, pumpkin. That's exactly what he was saying. Unless there is a secret code and handshake here I'm not privvy to.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

It wasn't you who said it, so you can keep your worthless, apologist opinions to yourself.

Someone saying that a guy who was born behind the 8-ball and scraped his way to the top did it all by luck is extremely arrogant and shows what a real stupid ###### he really is. I for one, am puzzled why you want to defend statements like those.

Now, please do us a favor and go stick your finger in a light socket or go play on the highway, and let the adults in here have a decent conversation.

There is a code, but it's not a secret. It's pinned on the Flames board. Summed up, it goes something like this "don't be a rude, insulting, ignorant dimwit". You've missed all 4 so I suggest you read it.

[troutman]

Research:

http://www.homelessness.gc.ca/homelessness/index_e.asp

In Canada, homelessness has a thousand faces. The reasons people are homeless in our country are many and varied. Many of the homeless have become disconnected from their families and communities. There are also those who have not been able to find or keep jobs. Sometimes, ongoing changes in the labour market make it difficult to maintain sufficient incomes for rent payments.
A broad base of understanding is required to create and build programs and services that will work towards providing support for each and every person who faces homelessness.
Homelessness can affect people of any age, gender or ethnic background. It does not discriminate.


Homelessness is a visible problem in Canada. However, to date, no reliable method for counting the number of people who are homeless can be identified. Canada does not have any accurate national statistics. Efforts are needed to effectively implement ways to gather this information.
The very nature of homelessness means that counting the people affected is difficult. Homelessness seems to have increased in visibility in urban centres, but no one is sure how many people live on the streets or in substandard shelter. The homeless population has no fixed address, is mobile and in many cases, hidden. The face of homelessness changes from community to community.

http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/homelessness/research.htm

Reason homeless in Greater Vancouver:

lack of income 44%
health/addiction 25%
cost of housing 22%
abuse etc 16%
evicted 14%
other 14%
moving/stranded 12%

http://www.toronto.ca/homelessness/index.htm

Housing and Homelessness Report Card 2003
Despite Toronto's strong economy, many people in need of affordable housing are being left behind, according to the Toronto Report Card on Housing and Homelessness 2003. Findings of this third Report Card include:

• 552,000 Toronto households have incomes below the poverty line
• 250,000 Toronto households pay more than 30 per cent of their incomes on rent
• 71,000 households are now on the municipal waiting list for affordable social housing, and
• 31,985 homeless individuals (including 4,779 children) stayed in a Toronto shelter at least once during 2002.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/li....htm#Three-txt

On a world scale, it is estimated that more than one billion individuals are poorly housed and that 100 million of them are literally living on the street. According to a UNICEF report, every night there are 850,000 homeless people in Germany and 750,000 in the United States. In Canada’s largest city, Toronto, emergency shelters for the homeless took in an average of 6,500 persons each night in 1997.(3) The experts agree that, in addition to its constant growth, the homeless population has over the past 20 years or so undergone some substantial changes. In North America, for example, the homeless population includes a large and growing number of women,(4) youth,(5) families,(6) mentally disturbed people,(7) new immigrants,(8) and members of various ethnic communities; in Canada,(9) it includes many Aboriginal people.

[V]

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Read post #38 again, pumpkin. That's exactly what he was saying. Unless there is a secret code and handshake here I'm not privvy to.

Yeah, the code is, don't be an a$$hole. It's quite simple, really.

Read Jiri's response to your 'quote' again, dimwit, and you just might figure it out.