[Trade] Oilers trade Smid and Olivier Roy to Flames for Horak and Brossoit

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Gee, I didn't realize that it was my job to do the research for people who claim my stance to be "ridiculous" without presenting any facts.

Not your job to back your stance with stats either? Okay.

[GettinIggyWithIt]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

If a player can't make it so obvious as to highlight his abilities above Jeff Petry, then I have to question whether he has suitable abilities in that field (i.e. he should be able to make it obvious even to an untrained eye).

Is anyone here actually of the opinion that Smid is a strong puck mover? A cursory look at even his TSN player page would make it quite clear that is not one of his strengths........... I'm surprised that is even being debated to be quite honest.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I said Smid was a strong puck mover? The statement you responded to was highlighting the fact that you were using the Oilers use of Smid as a good example of why he is not a good defenseman. The Oilers are a terrible example to support your argument. Their talent evaluation and player management leaves a lot to be desired and even IF they were using Petry to move the puck out of the defensive zone, it means nothing given their poor decision making in the past. That was my point.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The Flames gave up next to nothing for a viable NHL defenseman (which the Oilers clearly lack).

That's how I see it. I don't really look at advanced stats. He's been solid for us on the ice from what I'm seeing in the games.


He can't move the puck up ice? Maybe that's why he's with Gio.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

Gee, I didn't realize that it was my job to do the research for people who claim my stance to be "ridiculous" without presenting any facts.

It's always your responsibility to bring the facts to back up your argument, especially when the basis to your argument is about those stats.

Behind the net has some insight on his CORSI ratings, which has Smid as being ranked below his line mates in puck possession last season, on a soft Oilers team. That doesn't speak volumes to me that he is an essential part of a defense core.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#

These stats don't really tell us anything we don't know about Smid. Played a somewhat sheltered role, used primarily in a defensive role and killing penalties.

Further, puckprospectus ranked Smid as being a replacement level defensemen last season, and an average third pairing defensemen the season before. He was projected around that level this season despite his poor ranking in 2013.

I have no idea what this means, or it's relevance to the discussion. (Not meant as an attack on the information, it's just not a terminology/site I'm familiar with).

This opinion I did not realize to be so controversial. There's a reason that the Oilers had little issue parting with Smid to a division rival for a paltry return. He has a myriad of holes in his game. He's got uses, but if not used correctly, he can certainly be overexposed.

In my humble opinion, I feel that he often gets overrated from the scouts watching him, as he often doesn't have the toughest assignments. He can often be seen playing mistake free hockey against less offensively talented players, but I think a more watchful eye would notice the lack of ability to funnel offense simultaneously, and his participating against non elite forwards. I think he's worth his contract, and being used appropriately by the Flames. I have no problem with the trade. But at the same time, I think it's appropriate not to ignore some pretty clear flaws in his game that some of the advanced stats highlight pretty clearly.

Here's where your argument starts to fall apart. By your own words you think of "an awesome bottom pairing guy as someone who when used on a bottom pairing would provide a distinct advantage to the team on the ice and be a mismatch for bottom line forwards." By your own words this is exactly what Smid does. I think your focused too much on his lack of offense in this scenario. Most bottom-pair guys are going to have holes in their game. Smid is not a good skater, and certainly isn't a great puck mover. He's a role player. He blocks shots, kills penalties, throws the occasional hit and clears the front of the net. Having a player that can fill a defined role and excel out of it is usually what your hoping for in a good 5/6 defenseman.

Again, he's on a relatively cheap contract, and was acquired from a division rival for some medicore prospects. If he's as valuable as you guys are claiming, teams around the NHL would have been lining up for his services. Almost every team is looking to add another quality defensemen, it just doesn't appear to me that Smid had the qualities that teams are looking for (puck moving ability, and ability to play a strong two way game against top 6 forwards).

I really think we're just discussing differences in how we define a bottom-pairing defenseman. Most teams wouldn't be acquiring a 5/6 d-man with the idea of playing them against top-6 forwards. That's the job of the top-4 guys. Bottom pairing is where you find guys that are good shutdown players against bottom-6 forwards, but maybe lack puck-moving abilities. Or conversely you find guys that are good skaters/puck movers but struggle in their own end.

[devo22]

Also, looking at Petry's D partners this season, it's pretty obvious the Coilers expect him to be the puck moving part. Just going to highlight how bad the Oilers are if Petry is your go-to guy in that regard ...

Left Defenseman Right Defenseman Frequency
JEFF PETRY ANDREW FERENCE 14.76%
JEFF PETRY LADISLAV SMID 9.58%
JEFF PETRY ANTON BELOV 6.23%
JEFF PETRY NICK SCHULTZ 2.35%
JEFF PETRY DENIS GREBESHKOV 0.33%

http://www.leftwinglock.com/line-com...gametype=ALL#A

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

It's always your responsibility to bring the facts to back up your argument, especially when the basis to your argument is about those stats.

I don't mind bringing facts. I find it crazy that someone could find my stance "ridiculous" without educating themselves with the relevant data behind the opinion. It's one thing to ask for clarification, but to immediately dismiss and insult, without even reviewing for contradictory information is lazy.

These stats don't really tell us anything we don't know about Smid. Played a somewhat sheltered role, used primarily in a defensive role and killing penalties.

Wrong. The stats actually show that he wasn't sheltered in Edmonton. He was used in difficult situations as shown by the quality of competition stats. It shows that he performed worse than his peers (who as documented by everyone are mostly terrible all around defensemen) when pressed with a difficult opportunity.

I have no idea what this means, or it's relevance to the discussion. (Not meant as an attack on the information, it's just not a terminology/site I'm familiar with).

Plainly it means that by their metrics, a number of high calibre AHL defensemen could provide similar overall value if given Smid's opportunities. The difference is that some teams might be more comfortable with Smid's mistake free efforts, rather than the high's and lows you might find with a two way defensemen you might find in the A.

Here's where your argument starts to fall apart. By your own words you think of "an awesome bottom pairing guy as someone who when used on a bottom pairing would provide a distinct advantage to the team on the ice and be a mismatch for bottom line forwards." By your own words this is exactly what Smid does. I think your focused too much on his lack of offense in this scenario.

Disagree completely. He's good defensively, but he's not "shut down". He's not a good skater, and has a few other flaws. He can handle himself defensively, but he's not out of this world. I'm saying he's worse offensively than he is good defensively. Both sides matter, and to be an "awesome bottom pairing guy", he should be "awesome" at least at something.


Most bottom-pair guys are going to have holes in their game. Smid is not a good skater, and certainly isn't a great puck mover. He's a role player. He blocks shots, kills penalties, throws the occasional hit and clears the front of the net. Having a player that can fill a defined role and excel out of it is usually what your hoping for in a good 5/6 defenseman.

I really think we're just discussing differences in how we define a bottom-pairing defenseman.

Completely agree.

M Bottom pairing is where you find guys that are good shutdown players against bottom-6 forwards, but maybe lack puck-moving abilities. Or conversely you find guys that are good skaters/puck movers but struggle in their own end.

Agreed. Hence why I would say he is roughly average, or mediocre as a bottom pairing guy (my original words). He does the job adequately.

I would expect as an awesome guy in that role he would be more than adequate. Sorry is that ruffles other's feathers.

[PeteMoss]

Hooray - advanced stats have been clearly proven as meaningful on an individual basis!

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Hooray - advanced stats have been clearly proven as meaningful on an individual basis!

And who said that? I simply brought it to the table to discuss.

If we can't discuss those, then basically there is nothing proven that we can discuss. It would be nothing more than baseless opinions of people we don't know.

Sorry for trying to add some relevant pieces that had not been analyzed yet.

I was told by friends that this place was a little high on the homerism, but I didn't expect to be scolded for suggesting that Smid was an adequate third pairing defensemen, not an elite one.

How dare I!!!!

[JiriHrdina]

Watch knocking "this place" or your stay will be a short one

[Red John]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

And who said that? I simply brought it to the table to discuss.

If we can't discuss those, then basically there is nothing proven that we can discuss. It would be nothing more than baseless opinions of people we don't know.

Sorry for trying to add some relevant pieces that had not been analyzed yet.

I was told by friends that this place was a little high on the homerism, but I didn't expect to be scolded for suggesting that Smid was an adequate third pairing defensemen, not an elite one.

How dare I!!!!

[FBI]

I think you are an island by yourself with the "Smid is garbage" schtick. Maybe moon is with you there too, but Smid has been awesome for us as a bottom pairing D.

Passionate, in your face, not a liability whatsoever. (Like Butler)

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by FBI

I think you are an island by yourself with the "Smid is garbage" schtick. Maybe moon is with you there too, but Smid has been awesome for us as a bottom pairing D.

Passionate, in your face, not a liability whatsoever. (Like Butler)

That's just words in my mouth. Not even attempting to understand my argument.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Watch knocking "this place" or your stay will be a short one

My friend said that, not me!

How about everyone knocking the new guy for simply having a contradictory opinion (and stated in a respectful manner with relevent evidence)?

Is that considered cool here? If so, I will be glad to end my participation. It seemed from reading this board there were a lot of passionate fans that wanted to learn each other's opinions and discuss Flames hockey in a respectful way.

I'm reconsidering that opinion after the rude welcome I have been given.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I'm reconsidering that opinion after the rude welcome I have been given.

sorry. Normally there are flowers and a Bundt cake!

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

My friend said that, not me!

How about everyone knocking the new guy for simply having a contradictory opinion (and stated in a respectful manner with relevent evidence)?

Is that considered cool here? If so, I will be glad to end my participation. It seemed from reading this board there were a lot of passionate fans that wanted to learn each other's opinions and discuss Flames hockey in a respectful way.

I'm reconsidering that opinion after the rude welcome I have been given.

The first time you go to someone's else home do you tell them all the nasty things you've heard about their place? Probably not.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The first time you go to someone's else home do you tell them all the nasty things you've heard about their place? Probably not.

I do when they punch me in the face halfway through the doorstep.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I do when they punch me in the face halfway through the doorstep.

If you consider someone telling you your stance is ridiculous the equivalent of punching you in the face you might not be cut out for this "internet" thing.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

If you consider someone telling you your stance is ridiculous the equivalent of punching you in the face you might not be cut out for this "internet" thing.

It was a hyperbole. Relax.

But it was more in reference to the 10 people who made zero attempt to properly characterize my opinion, and instead have tried to belittle me and put words on my mouth.

I find that odd for a message board where the intent is to learn other's opinions and thoughts. I get the feeling that nobody has any intent to listen to a perhaps valid criticism of Smid.

[greentree]

Oilers have called up Horak.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

The first time you go to someone's else home do you tell them all the nasty things you've heard about their place? Probably not.

If you want to use the home analogy, I'd say it's equally as rude to treat a new person with as little respect as this guy is getting. He's really been unfairly jumped. This isn't directed at you Jiri, but the community that has "welcomed" him.