[News] Feaster and Weisbrod relieved of duties. Burke will hire a new GM

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by T@T

5 years of drafts with 6 first rounders including #2 and #3 overall better return more than those 4 players...a blind monkey could do that.

You can't discount what he did to get the #2 overall in that draft though to get both the Sedins.

That was a bit of a work of art, especially when you look at how the rest of that draft turned out in the long term.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2010/1...ed-the-sedins/

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

You can't discount what he did to get the #2 overall in that draft though to get both the Sedins.

That was a bit of a work of art, especially when you look at how the rest of that draft turned out in the long term.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2010/1...ed-the-sedins/

The funny thing is, of those top 11 picks, the next best player after the Sedin twins is probably Oleg Saprykin Way to go Al Coates!

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

The funny thing is, of those top 11 picks, the next best player after the Sedin twins is probably Oleg Saprykin Way to go Al Coates!

Plus Coates managed to get Savard by swapping 9 for 11.

[devo22]

that was a crazy draft ... the Lightning originally had the 1st overall and then, amongst all the other trading in the league, completely traded out of the first round. Would love to see a trade like that in today's era, Dreger and McKenzie would probably break their fingers from all the twitter coverage

[T@T]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

You can't discount what he did to get the #2 overall in that draft though to get both the Sedins.

That was a bit of a work of art, especially when you look at how the rest of that draft turned out in the long term.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2010/1...ed-the-sedins/

Yeah he made it work, The Sedins kind of helped force the issue on all GM's as they would only play together(sucky babies) and for about 5 years it didn't look all that great as they only averaged 30-40 points.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by devo22

the fact that Sutters drafting was even worse doesn't make Burkes drafting better.

Not saying it is, but given the luck we've had over the last 20 years, a blind monkey is a huge upgrade.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by T@T

5 years of drafts with 6 first rounders including #2 and #3 overall better return more than those 4 players...a blind monkey could do that.

I think you are over-estimated how successful teams are when drafting.

Look at the Blackhawks for example:
2006 - Picked Toews 3rd overall, no one else drafted that year played a game in the NHL (they had 2 2nd rounders, a 3rd rounder and 2 4th rounders)
2007 - Picked Kane 1st overall (other draft picks played a total of 10 games led by Akim Aliu with 7, they again had two 2nd rounders and two 3rd round picks)
2008 - Ben Smith has played 50 games, one other guy got 1 game (1st round pick was Kyle Beach)
2009 - Marcus Kruger has played 162 games, Brandon Pirri's been up and down this year and Dylan Olsen has played a few games with Florida.

Basically they screwed up every pick for 3 years outside of Kane and Toews. 2009 is still up in the air but it looks like they got one grinder and a couple of borderline players.

Its not like teams are running at 50% with successful picks. If you land 3 top line forwards and a top pair defenseman in 5 years... you are doing very well.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Critisizing Tod Button is similar to how CP used to target and critisize Rich Preston. I don't think we have anywhere near the knowledge to critic Tod Button.... as the crappy prospect development can be any number of things.

While this is true, you think a guy who has survived 5 GMs and 14 years would have a better track record than being the worst drafting team in the NHL over the period of time he has been in charge.

I mean, you have to try hard to be the worst.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

While this is true, you think a guy who has survived 5 GMs and 14 years would have a better track record than being the worst drafting team in the NHL over the period of time he has been in charge.

I mean, you have to try hard to be the worst.

Yeah, you would think so...... I don't know either. I have heard people who actually do talk to Tod Button though and they say he's a pretty smart guy. Which I guess is my point, maybe its not him, maybe its something else.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

While this is true, you think a guy who has survived 5 GMs and 14 years would have a better track record than being the worst drafting team in the NHL over the period of time he has been in charge.

I mean, you have to try hard to be the worst.

Not sure we're the worst either. Most teams draft records are a huge string of busts. Even the best drafting teams in the league miss most of the time.

Scouting is a lot more of a crapshoot outside the top 3-5 picks than some fans want to admit.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

What terrifies me is when I heard Burke say at his press conference when he got hired that he is looking to change the scouting department. I hope he comes in and isn't a 'bully'. I hope he listens to what Todd Button has to say, and just adds to the scouting team.

I really do think that scouting teams are difficult to build up. It doesn't appear to be one of those things that you can throw a lot of money at in one year, and see vastly improved results. It seems to be much more of a fine-tuning process, and I think the Flames are reaching an a level they haven't seen since the late 80's.

The one saving grace I find is that Burke is too experienced and knows not to disrupt a scouting department too much in-season. A new GM will be hired - and hopefully someone that has a proven track-record with drafting, and then an AGM will also be hired - and hopefully once again someone with a proven track record (and hopefully they are both former directors of amateur scouting at some point in their careers).

The Flames drafting might actually get better under Burke's watch. However, I also remain terrified until I at least hear who will be hired as the GM.

You can't really change your scouts mid-season. They are nearing halfway through a year long process. And the other scouts you'd be hiring? They are doing the same and under contract to other teams right now and thus aren't available.

Any fine tuning to the scouting staff will come in the offseason. Button will get at least one more shot at things it looks like. I don't mind his body of work lately.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure we're the worst either. Most teams draft records are a huge string of busts. Even the best drafting teams in the league miss most of the time.

Scouting is a lot more of a crapshoot outside the top 3-5 picks than some fans want to admit.

Outside of Dion, Lombardi and Kobasew are our two best players. I'd be hard pressed to find a team worst than that.

Maybe the Flames are slightly better than another organization in terms of man games or something, but in terms of quality? I stand by my assertion.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I think you are over-estimated how successful teams are when drafting.

Look at the Blackhawks for example:
2006 - Picked Toews 3rd overall, no one else drafted that year played a game in the NHL (they had 2 2nd rounders, a 3rd rounder and 2 4th rounders)
2007 - Picked Kane 1st overall (other draft picks played a total of 10 games led by Akim Aliu with 7, they again had two 2nd rounders and two 3rd round picks)
2008 - Ben Smith has played 50 games, one other guy got 1 game (1st round pick was Kyle Beach)
2009 - Marcus Kruger has played 162 games, Brandon Pirri's been up and down this year and Dylan Olsen has played a few games with Florida.

Basically they screwed up every pick for 3 years outside of Kane and Toews. 2009 is still up in the air but it looks like they got one grinder and a couple of borderline players.

Its not like teams are running at 50% with successful picks. If you land 3 top line forwards and a top pair defenseman in 5 years... you are doing very well.

true, but they hit a few homeruns before Toews/Kane ... those were the franchise players to finish the rebuild. They had drafted a whole core around them in the years before:

2002 1st round, 21st overall - D Anton Babchuk
2002 2nd round, 54th overall - D Duncan Keith
2002 5th round, 156th overall - D James Wisniewski
2002 9th round, 282nd overall - F Adam Burish
2003 1st round, 14th overall - D Brent Seabrook
2003 2nd round, 52nd overall - G Corey Crawford
2003 8th round, 245th overall - D/F Dustin Byfuglien
2004 1st round, 3rd overall - D Cam Barker
2004 2nd round, 32nd overall - F Dave Bolland
2004 2nd round, 41st overall - F Bryan Bickell
2004 7th round, 214th overall - F Troy Brouwer
2005 4th round, 108th overall - D Niklas Hjalmarsson

Plus a few other guys with 100+ NHL games (Kukkonen, Porter, Dowell, Skille, Blunden)

that doesn't excuse them for blowing the 2006 and 2007 drafts except for Kane and Toews, but it's easier to absorb years like that when you hit homeruns with a couple 2nd round picks (Keith, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell) and found some gems in the later rounds (Byfuglien, Brouwer) in the years before.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by devo22

true, but they hit a few homeruns before Toews/Kane ... those were the franchise players to finish the rebuild. They had drafted a whole core around them in the years before:

2002 1st round, 21st overall - D Anton Babchuk
2002 2nd round, 54th overall - D Duncan Keith
2002 5th round, 156th overall - D James Wisniewski
2002 9th round, 282nd overall - F Adam Burish
2003 1st round, 14th overall - D Brent Seabrook
2003 2nd round, 52nd overall - G Corey Crawford
2003 8th round, 245th overall - D/F Dustin Byfuglien
2004 1st round, 3rd overall - D Cam Barker
2004 2nd round, 32nd overall - F Dave Bolland
2004 2nd round, 41st overall - F Bryan Bickell
2004 7th round, 214th overall - F Troy Brouwer
2005 4th round, 108th overall - D Niklas Hjalmarsson

Plus a few other guys with 100+ NHL games (Kukkonen, Porter, Dowell, Skille, Blunden)

that doesn't excuse them for blowing the 2006 and 2007 drafts except for Kane and Toews, but it's easier to absorb years like that when you hit homeruns with a couple 2nd round picks (Keith, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell) and found some gems in the later rounds (Byfuglien, Brouwer) in the years before.

Brandon Saad. 2nd round 2011 looks like a homerun as well.

[sureLoss]

McKenzie on NHL Live. Flames GM search talk starts around 4 min mark

[liamenator]

Wow, Bobby really needed a glass of water in that clip.

That should ease some of the more spasmodic posters here that Burke isn't going to rush out and hire one of 'his guys' without casting around.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by devo22

true, but they hit a few homeruns before Toews/Kane ... those were the franchise players to finish the rebuild. They had drafted a whole core around them in the years before:

2002 1st round, 21st overall - D Anton Babchuk
2002 2nd round, 54th overall - D Duncan Keith
2002 5th round, 156th overall - D James Wisniewski
2002 9th round, 282nd overall - F Adam Burish
2003 1st round, 14th overall - D Brent Seabrook
2003 2nd round, 52nd overall - G Corey Crawford
2003 8th round, 245th overall - D/F Dustin Byfuglien
2004 1st round, 3rd overall - D Cam Barker
2004 2nd round, 32nd overall - F Dave Bolland
2004 2nd round, 41st overall - F Bryan Bickell
2004 7th round, 214th overall - F Troy Brouwer
2005 4th round, 108th overall - D Niklas Hjalmarsson

Plus a few other guys with 100+ NHL games (Kukkonen, Porter, Dowell, Skille, Blunden)

that doesn't excuse them for blowing the 2006 and 2007 drafts except for Kane and Toews, but it's easier to absorb years like that when you hit homeruns with a couple 2nd round picks (Keith, Crawford, Bolland, Bickell) and found some gems in the later rounds (Byfuglien, Brouwer) in the years before.

These lists affirm my feeling that drafts are, by and large, an exercise in chance and astrology-like forecasting. It's really up to the player drafted and has little to do with the organization's projections.

In this case, if Chicago was so smart, why did they draft Babchuk ahead of Keith? Because they really wanted a right-shooting defensemen? It's fair to say that the Blackhawks genuinely considered Babchuk to be better the better player and prospect; had they forecasted correctly, they would never have risked Keith being there in the second round given the quality difference between the two.

Similar situations abound with other gems drafted late. Datsyuk drafted 171st overall... if Detroit were really astute about forecasting and projection, they would not have risked such a player being available at 171. Ditto for many other late round gems.

So yeah, hard to say that Burke's drafting history is all that shiny, but at the same time, it is hard to criticize since the process is arguably more luck than skill.

[devo22]

Keith was a bit of a late bloomer I guess. Mind you, he went undrafted in 2001 and therefore was an "overager" at the draft. I found these old rankings by Sports Illustrated for the draft - Babchuk was ranked 7th among European Skaters, Keith didn't even make the top 90 among North American Skaters ... so I'd suggest it was a good and even a bit ballsy pick at that time. Defensemen develop at different rates and are sometimes hard to gauge ... he's not the only top NHL defenseman to slide to the 2nd round (Shea Weber, P.K. Subban). Not Chicagos fault that he fell to 54th.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hoc...inal_rankings/

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

While this is true, you think a guy who has survived 5 GMs and 14 years would have a better track record than being the worst drafting team in the NHL over the period of time he has been in charge.

I mean, you have to try hard to be the worst.

What would be at least partially helpful is to figure out year-to-year how many full-time and part-time scouts were employed by the Flames since Button came aboard. This could really explain the lack of talent drafted over-all - and Button did get some hits definitely - Saprykin as mentioned earlier, Stillman (I believe he drafted Stillman, right?), Lombo, and others. It wasn't 'zero', but it was definitely horrible.

I really believe that the best scouting teams in the NHL employ not only good scouts, but more scouts than other teams. In some cases you will see a smaller scouting staff with one good person that seems to make a world of difference (NYI about 5 years ago, for instance), but more often than not the smaller scouting staffed teams really end up getting their ROI.

It seems the draft has been trending upwards. Do you then fire Button because he used to be incompetent, or didn't get enough positive results years ago, or do you keep him on board because it looks like it is improving? I say you keep him around and add to him. Maybe hire an AGM that is a former Scouting Director with a proven track record (though I would assume that would be the new GM's call).

[getbak]

I think it's important for the Flames to pick second overall if Burke is running the draft.

Burke has had the second overall pick three times, and ended up with Chris Pronger, Daniel Sedin, and Bobby Ryan. Also interesting to note that he wheeled and dealed to get into the #2 spot for both Pronger and Sedin.

He gave up Hartford's first three picks to get Pronger. I wonder if Ekblad is good enough for him to do the same thing this year if the Flames end up in the 5 or 6 spot again?