On an unrelated note, the last thing that Canada (well, Canadian lawyers anyway) need(s) is another law school.
I couldn't agree more. The law school was a pet-project of the last university president, who I think saw this as his legacy. He very recently was forced to step down for health reasons, but I think this became a high priority for the school in light of the shortened timeframe as a result.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I tend to agree, but this was not my purpose in outlining in detail the TWU Community Covenant in met earlier post. My point initially was that I don't believe that the charge of discrimination follows from the document in question, as the Law Society of Alberta has attempted to do. If it does, then it is really not at all direct or obvious.
I concede that there is a discrimination at work insofar as TWU distinguishes people for certain roles or privileges based on their sexual orientation, which is clearly a problem. However, since the Community Covenant is only "binding" for students and faculty (and I would also imagine that as a legal document the extent to which the university can enforce the document is highly debatable) for the duration of their participation in the community, the effect on the aspirations of either group to enter into marriage seems possibly irrelevant. Notice that there is no language preventing members from forming homosexual relationships, or from expressing thoughts and feelings in a homosexual context.
Apart from the letter of the rule (as with many things in real life), the way this works itself out in the day-to-day activities on campus is actually quite different. In biology classes, there is no strong apologetic against the scientific validation for inherited homosexual tendencies. In psychology classes, gender issues are treated as normative parts of social and cultural development, and not as aberrant behaviours. The student newspaper's annual issue on sex and sexuality is very contemporary and balanced in its treatment of LBGT topics. I would be very interested to see how the university might handle a situation in which a student or students pursued same sex marriage whilst still enrolled at the school.
Of course discrimination requires actual differential treatment. It would be interesting to see how TWU would treat a professor who was openly gay or engaged in sexual activity with a gay partner (married or not.) As you noted earlier, perhaps TWU would be smart enough to seek (and follow) some legal advice before taking any action (despite the obvious contravention of the Covenant.) Perhaps TWU might try to make the argument that the employee is being punished for breaking their Covenant rather than for their sexuality. However, I doubt that would succeed. Even if one were to characterize the Covenant as being part of the employment contract, one can't contract out of one's human rights.
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"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
I couldn't agree more. The law school was a pet-project of the last university president, who I think saw this as his legacy. He very recently was forced to step down for health reasons, but I think this became a high priority for the school in light of the shortened timeframe as a result.
Law schools are a great revenue source for the institution. They're just bad for the students.
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"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
I want to think through this a little bit in more detail, but I need to catch the bus home in the next few minutes. But just quickly for now:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov
Of course discrimination requires actual differential treatment. It would be interesting to see how TWU would treat a professor who was openly gay or engaged in sexual activity with a gay partner (married or not.)
There is no injunction in any of TWU's documentation against homosexual tendencies and orientation. There are plenty of gay students at TWU without much controversy, and I expect the same would hold for a faculty member, although I do not believe that there is presently any in the faculty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov
...As you noted earlier, perhaps TWU would be smart enough to seek (and follow) some legal advice before taking any action (despite the obvious contravention of the Covenant.) Perhaps TWU might try to make the argument that the employee is being punished for breaking their Covenant rather than for their sexuality. However, I doubt that would succeed. Even if one were to characterize the Covenant as being part of the employment contract, one can't contract out of one's human rights.
That's pretty much what I expect, although I am not convinced—having had quite a bit of direct contact and experience with the University—that such an incident would result in any sort of contingent reaction.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I have read it a couple of times, and I'm not sure what the point of it is. I'm not sure if it was just a news item, or if they were raising a red flag. I think it is raising the question as to whether there is anything inconsistent in a faith-based university educating lawyers in a system with ethical requirements and a Charter of Rights.
These are some oaths that lawyers must swear in being admitted to the Bar:
Alberta:
"That I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors according to the law. That I will as a Barrister and Solicitor conduct all causes and matters faithfully and to the best of my ability. I will not seek to destroy anyone’s property. I will not promote suits upon frivolous pretences. I will not pervert the law to favor or prejudice anyone, but in all things will conduct myself truly and with integrity. I will uphold and maintain the Sovereign’s interest and that of my fellow citizens according to the law in force in Alberta."
Ontario:
I accept the honour and privilege, duty and responsibility of practising law as a barrister and solicitor in the Province of Ontario. I shall protect and defend the rights and interests of such persons as may employ me. I shall conduct all cases faithfully and to the best of my ability. I shall neglect no one’s interest and shall faithfully serve and diligently represent the best interests of my client. I shall not refuse causes of complaint reasonably founded, nor shall I promote suits upon frivolous pretences. I shall not pervert the law to favour or prejudice any one, but in all things I shall conduct myself honestly and with integrity and civility. I shall seek to ensure access to justice and access to legal services. I shall seek to improve the administration of justice. I shall champion the rule of law and safeguard the rights and freedoms of all persons. I shall strictly observe and uphold the ethical standards that govern my profession. All this I do swear or affirm to observe and perform to the best of my knowledge and ability.
I'm not sure a graduate of TWU is any more likely to discriminate against a group of people than a graduate from a secular school.
Probably professors at TWU would have a particular point of view or agenda, but so did many of the faculty at UBC. The Federation of Law Societies of Canada can monitor the curriculum.
^ Indeed. Some of the best lawyers I know are religious. Although I've never heard them say so, its possible that at least one or two of them disapprove of homosexuality on some religious basis. However, I've never seen this influence their work in anyway (granted, these were government lawyers, so it isn't as though they could turn away a client on the basis of sexuality, which I imagine is the most likely way that a lawyer would discriminate.)
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"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
...I'm not sure if it was just a news item, or if they were raising a red flag. I think it is raising the question as to whether there is anything inconsistent in a faith-based university educating lawyers in a system with ethical requirements and a Charter of Rights.
[/I]I'm not sure a graduate of TWU is any more likely to discriminate against a group of people than a graduate from a secular school[/I].
I think that I understand the concern, but it seems to me to be quite frankly a bit alarmist. There is by implication in the idea that lawyers trained by a confessional institution are inherently more prejudiced a certain hubris that those from secular institutions are somehow less prone to bias. This rather emphatically contradicts the well-worn fact that EVERYONE harbours biases and prejudices on various levels, and ignores reality in which people can be trained—and do effectively manage—to look past their own prejudices.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I think that I understand the concern, but it seems to me to be quite frankly a bit alarmist. There is by implication in the idea that lawyers trained by a confessional institution are inherently more prejudiced a certain hubris that those from secular institutions are somehow less prone to bias. This rather emphatically contradicts the well-worn fact that EVERYONE harbours biases and prejudices on various levels, and ignores reality in which people can be trained—and do effectively manage—to look past their own prejudices.
Yeah, I agree but the fear is that TWU is introducing it's own prejudices which will require un-training.
^ Indeed. Some of the best lawyers I know are religious. Although I've never heard them say so, its possible that at least one or two of them disapprove of homosexuality on some religious basis. However, I've never seen this influence their work in anyway (granted, these were government lawyers, so it isn't as though they could turn away a client on the basis of sexuality, which I imagine is the most likely way that a lawyer would discriminate.)
Who is to say that a religious lawyer hired by a homosexual just doesnt give it his best shot? Id bet that happens all the time.
Who is to say that a religious lawyer hired by a homosexual just doesnt give it his best shot? Id bet that happens all the time.
Whose to say that a white layer hired by a Native person just doesn't give it his best shot? Id bet that happens all the time. (this one is might be true in terms of public defenders but certainly not generally and is still ridiculous)
Even if your above statement of it happening all the time is true (its not because lawyers are in the referral business) where the lawyer went to school is likely not a factor. A religious person may choose to go to TW but that religious person would have likely still become a lawyer even if it meant going to the UBC instead.
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TULSA, Okla. — Michele Bachmann was 22 and newly married when, in the fall of 1979, she and 53 other aspiring lawyers arrived on the manicured campus of Oral Roberts University here. They were the inaugural class in an unusual educational experiment: a law school rooted in charismatic Christian belief.
But the far more formative experience was one she rarely discusses in front of secular audiences: the legal education she received at Oral Roberts University, founded by the Christian televangelist and Pentecostal faith healer of that name. It was, one fellow student recalls, a “Petri dish of conservatism and Judeo-Christian thought.”
Mrs. Bachmann’s studies here exposed her to ideas — God is the source of law; the Constitution is akin to a biblical covenant, binding on future generations; the founders did not intend for a strict separation of church and state — that are percolating throughout the 2012 race for the presidency, as social conservative candidates like Gov. Rick Perry of Texas and Rick Santorum, the former senator from Pennsylvania, court the evangelical Christian vote.
In many respects, former professors and students say, O. W. Coburn was just like any secular law school, teaching students the nuts and bolts of torts, property law, contracts, and civil and criminal procedure. “We used the same kind of textbooks they used,” said Tim Harris, the Tulsa County district attorney, who graduated a few years ahead of Mrs. Bachmann. “We used the same Socratic method.”
But where secular law professors tend to analyze court decisions in the context of the Constitution, legislative actions and judicial precedent, professors here prodded students to also consider how biblical principles and Scripture would apply. In interviews, graduates say they infuse their Christian faith into their work in a variety of ways, perhaps counseling couples to avoid a divorce, or encouraging a businessman to honor a contract. Some are active in causes important to conservative Christians, like opposing abortion.
Here's a rendering of the statue the Satanic Temple wants to put up at the Oklahoma legislature after a Ten Commandments monument went up in 2012. Seems so...not evil...
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"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
The Following User Says Thank You to Senator Clay Davis For This Useful Post:
It sometimes feels like church in the auditorium of the Professional Musicians union in Hollywood. It's a Sunday morning, and hundreds of people are gathered to meditate, sing and listen to inspirational poetry and stories.
But then the live band starts up — performing songs by the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Jerry Lee Lewis. And instead of a sermon, there's a lecture by experimental psychologist and neuroscientist Jessica Cail about the biology of gender identification and sexual orientation.
This is a Los Angeles meeting of Sunday Assembly, a church for people who don't believe in God. The brainchild of two British comedians, the movement has since spread across the globe, and there are now about 30 chapters from Dublin to Sydney to New York.
I'd still rather watch the NFL on Sundays.
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When I was on holidays a couple of months ago and spent a couple of days in Hollywood I noticed 2 Scientology buildings within a couple of blocks of each other. Thought that was a bit much, but your story got me thinking about it, so I looked it up. Looks like they own a few buildings worth a bit of coin.
