Burke Philosophy VS Feaster Philosophy

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure, just like how Kevin Lowe wasn't pulling the strings on Tambellini. Burke may not have the title on his door (aside from now as interim), but he's been the GM from the day he was hired. The reaction of many fans here is implied acceptance of this fact - they are excited about having Burke run the show, not about some nebulous future GM running the show.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I have no issues with a puppet GM as long as the guy that's pulling the strings knows what he's doing. There's a big difference between Lowe pulling strings and Burke pulling strings. Lowe's GM track record is driving a once proud franchise into all-time low depths. Burke built a solid Canucks team, a Stanley Cup winning Ducks team, and a Leafs team that was starting to turn the corner. He's maybe not Ken Holland but he sure in hell isn't Kevin Lowe.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Sure, just like how Kevin Lowe wasn't pulling the strings on Tambellini. Burke may not have the title on his door (aside from now as interim), but he's been the GM from the day he was hired. The reaction of many fans here is implied acceptance of this fact - they are excited about having Burke run the show, not about some nebulous future GM running the show.

Well besides all the assumptions you made here, while portraying them as fact.... if the GM under Burke was always a puppet, why your sudden freak out? Feaster is just apuppet to Ken King and now Brian Burke anyways, right?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Well besides all the assumptions you made here, while portraying them as fact.... if the GM under Burke was always a puppet, why your sudden freak out? Feaster is just apuppet to Ken King and now Brian Burke anyways, right?

I said when Burke was hired both that (1) he is overrated and (2) Feaster was caught in no mans land. That Burke finally removed point two from the equation doesn't change my view on point one. My point is that Burke's performance on his last rebuild shouldn't lend people a ton of confidence in this one. Would love to be wrong, but I don't see the hockey genius that others claim exists.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I said when Burke was hired both that (1) he is overrated and (2) Feaster was caught in no mans land. That Burke finally removed point two from the equation doesn't change my view on point one. My point is that Burke's performance on his last rebuild shouldn't lend people a ton of confidence in this one. Would love to be wrong, but I don't see the hockey genius that others claim exists.

Fair enough... overrated compared to who?

If people are like me, its not that we expect to BB is one of the best GM in the league. We're just happy one of the worst isn't our GM anymore.

[Rerun]

"I don't like playing flag football," he said. "I like teams that bang ... not because it's Brian Burke's view on life, but because that's what wins in our league. We want black and blue hockey here. That's what we do in Alberta.

The Flames are going to get bigger. They're going to get meaner. It's going to happen quickly.

This he said with assurance and confidence, and you believed him.

Feaster, as it happened, wasn't the man to deliver Burke's vision. Always an awkward fit in Calgary - he fell into the post when Darryl Sutter stepped down - the former Tampa GM inherited a mess in Calgary and did his best.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Fe...070/story.html

I just hope we don't end up with a team of big plumbers.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Rerun

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Fe...070/story.html

I just hope we don't end up with a team of big plumbers.

Doesn't necessarily have to be big plumbers. There are numerous examples of smaller guys that play with the edge BB is looking for.

Brendan Gallagher: 5'8" 175lb
Brad Marchand: 5'9" 183lb
Steve Ott: 5'11" 182lb
And of course Theo Fleury.

Also to reiterate, I think he just wants a little more grit sprinkled throughout the lineup, not at every position. Think of how nice it would be to have someone like Ferland patrolling a line with Sven and Monahan. Someone who can do the dirty work, but still has enough skill to not look out of place (hopefully he continues to develop into this type of player).

West Coast Express: Bertuzzi 6'3" 215lb - BMo 5'11" 185lb - Naslund 5'11 195lb

I really don't think we're heading back to Sutter like drafting of Pelech, Negrin, Chucko, etc. Burke just thinks we could be a little harder to play against and he is completely right in that assessment.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

I really don't think we're heading back to Sutter like drafting of Pelech, Negrin, Chucko, etc. Burke just thinks we could be a little harder to play against and he is completely right in that assessment.

Negrin a plumber?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Doesn't necessarily have to be big plumbers. There are numerous examples of smaller guys that play with the edge BB is looking for.

Brendan Gallagher: 5'8" 175lb
Brad Marchand: 5'9" 183lb
Steve Ott: 5'11" 182lb
And of course Theo Fleury.

Also to reiterate, I think he just wants a little more grit sprinkled throughout the lineup, not at every position. Think of how nice it would be to have someone like Ferland patrolling a line with Sven and Monahan. Someone who can do the dirty work, but still has enough skill to not look out of place (hopefully he continues to develop into this type of player).

West Coast Express: Bertuzzi 6'3" 215lb - BMo 5'11" 185lb - Naslund 5'11 195lb

I really don't think we're heading back to Sutter like drafting of Pelech, Negrin, Chucko, etc. Burke just thinks we could be a little harder to play against and he is completely right in that assessment.

Burke does (or did in Toronto) draft a bunch of big oafs.. but they are typically in the later rounds. James Devane and Barron Smith come to mind... Smith (son of Steve Smith) couldn't even cut it in the OHL. But really Feaster did draft Kanzig in the 3rd round and he's a big lug for the most part.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Pittsburgh is a very physical team.

I don't think they have a single regular player who is under 5'11 on their roster and they were one of the top hitting teams last year..

Just because they've got Crosby on their team doesn't mean they don't play a similar style to Burke's philosophy and somehow that reflects well on Feaster?

In fact they follow the Burke Philosophy to a tee. They have 2 skilled guys (Crosby and Malkin) that don't hit or block shots and they are surrounded by beef that does.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Negrin a plumber?

I forgot about Negrin... He was someone I always had a lot of hope for, but I guess his knee injury was just too severe to overcome and be successful at the next level.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

In fact they follow the Burke Philosophy to a tee. They have 2 skilled guys (Crosby and Malkin) that don't hit or block shots and they are surrounded by beef that does.

Don't let the fact that Crosby and Malkin don't hit fool you into thinking they lack their own brand of truculence. They'll slash the sh$t out of you and Malkin has been known to lay the body. They're just busy scoring 100 points, so they don't always have time to play excessively physical.

[afc wimbledon]

The problem with Burke and Feaster is not how they are different but how they are the same, both were bought onboard in order to 'help' the existing GM, both were not, in theory, replacements, while in practice everyone saw them as the mark of death for the existing GM and this turned out to be true.

It would be nice for once if the owners showed some cajones and just went ahead and fired someone at the effective end of playoff contention and then went through a thorough hiring process into the off season.

Burke at least promises to be his own man but the whole organization still reeks of uncertainty and an inability to make proper timely decisions.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Ark2

Feaster had no philosophy. He just had platitudes.

and buzzwords

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The problem with Burke and Feaster is not how they are different but how they are the same, both were bought onboard in order to 'help' the existing GM, both were not, in theory, replacements, while in practice everyone saw them as the mark of death for the existing GM and this turned out to be true.

It would be nice for once if the owners showed some cajones and just went ahead and fired someone at the effective end of playoff contention and then went through a thorough hiring process into the off season.

Burke at least promises to be his own man but the whole organization still reeks of uncertainty and an inability to make proper timely decisions.

Burke says he's an impatient man but when it comes to hiring a new GM, he says he's going to be very patient. I don't blame him as the new hire will be slated to replace him when Burke gets fired.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Burke employed different philosophies in different teams.

I really don't think the Leafs are contenders. I do see them as a mediocre team. Nobody is fooled by them and think they can legitimately challenge for the cup.

However, look at his work in Vancouver. He basically rebuilt that team. He made a series of moves to garner two top picks to draft the Sedins. He has drafted and built around skilled guys that do not have that 'truculence' that is often talked about by him. Kadri and Kessel are guys that aren't going to make anyone else black and blue.

I don't like Burke. I think he is and always has been a bit of a blowhard who comes off arrogant and at times, a bully. However, I do think that he has a proven track record of success and he can indeed build a team. I don't think he doesn't have patience, but I also don't think he is that arrogant and that incompetent to rush through a rebuild and put a 'finished' stamp on it.

I personally take his lack of patience as not willing to accept an Oiler's style rebuild where they break records for futility. That doesn't mean (to me) that he will simply rush through a rebuild, resulting in a mediocre team full of holes that squeak into the playoffs.

I hope that he carefully scouts the Heat and starts to realize the potential of the prospects there before he decides to make any moves. Flames are much, much deeper than the Leafs were when he took that team over.

What I find most imperative is that a team must have a plan and build towards an identity. Detroit is hardly a 'bruising' team, but they have consistently been one of the best teams in the NHL over the last 20 years. LA, Boston, Chicago and Anaheim all achieved success in different ways - yes, they all had size, but they all have different identities on those teams.

St. Louis is a team that is quickly on the rise because they have a solid identity (and are still trying to upgrade), and look to legitimately challenge for the cup. San Jose has been a great regular season team, and they also rely on some size, but haven't been overly-successful outside of the regular season.

Just like Ken King stated a few years back - There are a few ways you can be right. Sure, hindsight in the Flames being what it was, they were wrong. However, the point does stand. You can build a team differently, as long as you have a strong identity and a solid plan in that direction. The Flames 'rock solid plan' was built on quicksand, and the only identity they had was trending into irrelevancy, but when you compare the top teams around the NHL, there are groups of them that are equally successful in different ways.

I like the black and blue hockey myself (which is weird that I still haven't warmed up to Burke), and I loved how much swagger this team had throughout the years - not just the '04 run (which was the height of their swagger since the late 80's), and I do look forward to going back to that a bit. Even though I don't particularly like Burke on the Flames and feel he has always been overrated, I do not think he is incompetent either.

I hope Burke, Conroy, the new GM, the new AGM, Goulet, and whomever else all sit down and hammer out what their vision for the team is, make the necessary decisions on the upcoming UFAs and RFAs, and pick through the prospect depth with a fine tooth comb and see what really is there that supports their identity moving forward.

I think Darryl screwed up in two ways with the Flames.
1) Poor coaching decision after poor coaching decision
2) His trades while GREAT (outside those unforgettable 48 hours), gradually eroded the identity this team had.

I hope Burke brings real vision, and steadily builds towards it.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by liamenator

The thing about 'Jay Feaster teams' is that he's never built one that achieved anything.

After the inherited Tampa team won in 2004, Feaster was tasked with sustaining that momentum. He had two options, neither of which were great: 1) preserve the core Big Four, remake the supporting cast around them, or 2) sell high on one of the Big Three, distribute that value through the line-up.

In typical Feaster fashion, he waffled his way into choosing both. He went with option 1 for the two post-lockout seasons, re-signing each of Lecavalier, St. Louis, Richards, and Boyle to huge contracts. Then he abruptly switched gears when he realized the failure of this experiment, trading Richards at the 2008 deadline. The Lighting's post-apex period was one of steady decline and seemed to lack any sense of coherent direction. Granted, he was in the unenviable situation of being the first GM tasked to preserve a cup winning team under a salary cap. Probably was always doomed to failure.

But we've just witnessed his second kick at the can, and it's a familiar story--JF inherits a post-apex team, has to determine the best course of action. First he chooses to keep the core together, that doesn't work. So then it's going to be a 're-tool' (not a rebuild!). That doesn't work either. Finally we arrive at the rebuild phase. So, 3 years in charge, three different philosophies. People talk a lot about Burke's impatience, but Feaster has never been able to stick with a team-building philosophy for more than a couple of years.

Jay Feaster is a waffler. He's a smart guy and has good intentions, but his early success in administering an inherited team to a cup has masked the fact that, in the 7 seasons he has been a GM since 2004, his teams have improved their point totals over the year prior exactly once: 06-07 TB improved over 05-06 by a single point. So, 6 of 7 years his teams declined.

The man is a terrible NHL General Manager.

Thats true. Its very intresting to look at Feaster's tenure with Tampa and compare it to Calgary. It does mirror itself in a lot of ways. Both teams, the team did not perform to expectations and had to change route due to poor forsight and misjudging the teams roster. Mismanagement changes the the direction again and again - eventually Feaster gets fired. Usually some excuse about ownership meddling is an excuse. Franchise players are traded for magic beans. And as you mentioned, each consecutive year of Feaster's GM tenure, the team just gets worse and worse.

So for all the talk about what kind of mess Darryl left Feaster... what did Feaster leave in Tampa? Outside of Stamkos (1st overall) his best draft pick was probably Kari Ramo. Aging franchise players on long term contracts with NTC/NMC. Little depth. Year after year, the team gets worse in the standings... in a few years I wonder how the Flames will be thought up of from Feasters mess. David Jones making $4M, Wideman on year 2 of a 5 year contract paid as a top pairing defenseman, however his 2 best goalies not in the NHL do, the legecy returns of Iginla/Bouw/Regehr....

[macrov]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I think that advanced stats are extremely valuable because they help to remove bias. They are not a replacement for watching and scouting a player with your own eyes, but it does help to remove bias - both good and bad.

The more you can analyze a player, the better things are I would assume for scouting purposes. I just think it is a tool that is starting to be widely used, and you have to assume since it is being widely used, there has to be a ROI on it for every organization.

People who rely on it rather than using their own eyes can easily become fooled though, just as you can fool yourself by having bias (pro and negative bias) for particular players when watching. It is a way to verify what you are seeing out there, and if they don't match up, then perhaps you need to view the player a bit better and get the whole book on him.

I agree.

In my background, we used advanced stats and they were available to very stupid people as well as very talented ones. Stupid people either ignored them, or used them in isolation. They either said "advanced stats don't matter because they don't think like I've been trained to think" or "only the stats matter because they remove bias. Its pure."

The smarter guys knew that advance stats might remove bias and shine light on blind spots, but they also remove judgement and nuance. And presumably you were hired because you have the skills and judgement to analyze and assess the nuances. So, for the smart guys, they figured out how to make advanced stats compliment their ability, skill-set and experience. If you know how to use them, they can reduce mistakes and point to undervalued assets.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The easiest route to getting better is trading away picks and prospects, and overpaying UFAs. I don't know if that's the approach Burke will take. But he does have a track record of those kinds of moves. As others have mentioned, there's no Pronger wanting out of Edmonton, or Niedermeyer who wants to play with his brother. If Burke wants a stud d-man, he'll probably have to draft him and wait 4-6 seasons for him to develop.

Maybe...or draft one or trade for one or sign one as a UFA. Maybe one of each and hope something sticks.

Stempniak, Stajan, Cammy, Butler and Russel are are impending UFAs. If Burke decides to re-sign Russel and trade the rest, you're looking at some pretty decent prospects and picks coming back. A lot of those guys will fetch a 2nd rounder, and Cammy will fetch a first. And hopefully its brings enough of a haul, when combine with our own draft pick, to stock the cupboards for a long time.

I could see Burke going after Gardiner or Despres at the deadline. And Phaneuf in the off-season. Phaneuf is very much a Burke guy.

[UKflames]

The love for BB on this site at the moment is beyond a man crush

Again we have people turning the stick that they use to beat Feaster into a flag pole for Burke. When the chips started to fall everyone was pleased it was finally happening. Many people stressed patience and that we shouldn't rush the rebuild, this season was going to be tough but it would result in good times ahead. We didn't want any rushed moves and building through the draft was the right direction for the basis of the rebuild.

Now Burke has said that he isn't a patient man and want to move this forward, everyone is thinking this is a great idea and patience is no longer needed. Building a team through the draft, no let's start packaging up our first round pick with some of other prospects, as suggested in one of the other threads. If that had been suggested during Feasters time CP would have been up in arms as Feaster was throwing away picks which we needed to use.

All of the Burke supporters are claiming what great teams BB has built, I don't see Vancouver or Toronto having won a stanley cup any time recently, so maybe those teams are not as great as everyone is saying.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by UKflames

The love for BB on this site at the moment is beyond a man crush

It's a combination of wishing for the best and closet Leaf fans (of whom there are legion). What's funny is how many who slammed Feaster for his platitudes are eating up the carefully rehearsed sound-bites Burke loves to throw out in his sports-theatre press conferences.

Burke is a mediocre retread who excels at self-promotion. He's the Pat Quinn of GMs. We'd be laughing at Edmonton if he took the GM job there.