[OT] Faithful fans getting fed up with mediocrity: Jets losing sales sizzle

[Jordan!]

They should build a bridge, like MSG

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

First off, they are at most "missing" 4500 seats, they do not need to be the second largest arena in the country.

And you're right to not assume that they're missing seats in the lower bowl because assuming they're missing seats anywhere other than the nose bleeds would be ridiculous. So find the cheapest seat prices and make them slightly cheaper. That's the seats they're missing. These seats also cost the most to build for bringing in the least amount of revenue, closer to $10M a year. When you consider the cost of a new arena ($150M+ more than what MTS cost) you're expecting those seats to pay off the additional construction cost alone after 15 years. Is it really worth it?

The smaller arena also proves helpful in the diversity of concerts that come through which is why the smallest arena in the smallest market in the league is able to have more non-sporting tickets sold than the likes of the Pepsi Center, Scottrade Center, TD Garden, Nationwide Arena, Xcel Energy Center and the Saddledome (in fact MTS has over 100,000 more tickets sold to non-sporting events than the 'Dome *2012 numbers*).


So no, Winnipeg does not need a new arena more than Calgary. If you want to talk about embarrassing you should look at the suite revenue of Canada's second largest corporate base and how much less non sporting event tickets the Dome sells compared to its Canadian counterparts (it's eighth).

Thank god, somebody could explain it better than me

[Muta]

The cost to expand the MTS Centre by 4000 seats can run into the $60-100M range (I've heard from a contractor). Not impossible, but definitely not the first option on the table. Fans support will be key at this stage. I could see an expansion later on, but this definitely won't happen soon.

Right now is 'showtime' for Winnipeg to show the NHL and the world that it's serious about hanging onto the Jets. They need to buy tickets and sell that arena out even in the worst of times - or it'll be 1996 all over again for them in due time.

[Senator Clay Davis]

When the Jets moved back I pretty much thought 10 years was the max they would have before things went south and relocating again became a possibility. I think thats part of the reason why the NHL might wait on expansion, the Winnipeg franchise might be a likely relocation candidate sooner than later. Of course if you add Seattle and Quebec City, you could always just relocate them to Kansas City.

Unfortunately for Winnipegers and Winnipeg fans...its still Winnipeg. Corporate support is never going to be what it is everywhere else (except Ottawa), free agents are never volunteering to sign there (unless there's a significant overpay), which leaves a team likely to be mired in the mediocrity of 5th place finishes. And they're in a brutal division that the top three teams (Chicago, Colorado and St. Louis) are set up to dominate for the next decade. They'll be struggling year in and year out just for the right to get eliminated in the first round anyways.

Basically Winnipeg fans have to decide how much is their commitment to NHL hockey? Do they love it so much they'll show up for a team that is possibly not going to compete for a Stanley Cup ever (or at the very least, for the very foreseable future)? Will they stay for the necessary tanking (3-5 years likely) to try and get an elite or (hopefully) generational talent? And keep in mind ticket prices will almost certainly not be dropping and will likely rise. I have my doubts.

[GGG]

I think the average value of the 4000 "missing" seats being tossed around is ridiculous. At best those 4000 seats end up being the equivalent of green seats. So $60 dollars face or 45 season ticket holder.

There is also no way the average ticket price in the saddledome is $260 when the Avision Young Club seats go for 260 for non-premium games. So all of those numbers are out of whack.

The Jets are potentially missing out on about 11 million in seat revenue relative to the flames for those seats. Now the lack of corporate boxes definately cost the team money provided they could sell them.

Also as the dollar drops so does the cap as something like 1/2 of the leagues ticket sales are in Canadian dollars and the Rogers Deal is in Canadian dollars. So as the dollar suffers so does the cap. If half of the leagues revenues are in Canadian dollars and half of revenue is Salary than the weakness in the dollar will be linked directly to the Salary Cap. So in otherwords not a big deal to Canadian teams.

Having a few single seats available when Season ticket holders signed 5 year deals just to get tickets is not an issue. At the end of season 5 there season ticket holder renewal numbers will be crucial. Up until then, nothing to worry about.

[SeeBass]

"When the Jets moved back I pretty much thought 10 years was the max they would have before things went south and relocating again became a possibility. I think thats part of the reason why the NHL might wait on expansion, the Winnipeg franchise might be a likely relocation candidate sooner than later. Of course if you add Seattle and Quebec City, you could always just relocate them to Kansas City.

Unfortunately for Winnipegers and Winnipeg fans...its still Winnipeg. Corporate support is never going to be what it is everywhere else (except Ottawa), free agents are never volunteering to sign there (unless there's a significant overpay), which leaves a team likely to be mired in the mediocrity of 5th place finishes. And they're in a brutal division that the top three teams (Chicago, Colorado and St. Louis) are set up to dominate for the next decade. They'll be struggling year in and year out just for the right to get eliminated in the first round anyways.

Basically Winnipeg fans have to decide how much is their commitment to NHL hockey? Do they love it so much they'll show up for a team that is possibly not going to compete for a Stanley Cup ever (or at the very least, for the very foreseable future)? Will they stay for the necessary tanking (3-5 years likely) to try and get an elite or (hopefully) generational talent? And keep in mind ticket prices will almost certainly not be dropping and will likely rise. I have my doubts"



Any other teams that might come to mind that look to be trapped in mediocrity?

Any other teams you can think of that are hoping for a generational player?

Any other teams asking their fans to hang on for a few years at high prices and they are not going to be going down?

Any other teams having trouble getting free agents to sign unless a significant overpay?

Any other teams look to be in a tough division with a few dominate teams?

Any other provinces not having an NHL game with any meaning being played in over 5 years?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

Any other teams that might come to mind that look to be trapped in mediocrity?

Any other teams you can think of that are hoping for a generational player?

Any other teams asking their fans to hang on for a few years at high prices and they are not going to be going down?

Any other teams having trouble getting free agents to sign unless a significant overpay?

Any other teams look to be in a tough division with a few dominate teams?

Any other provinces not having an NHL game with any meaning being played in over 5 years?

I'll answer this briefly: The answer is all of them, but none of them as bad as Winnipeg. Accept it, in terms of drawing players, having a strong economic base of corporate and non-corporate support, and having a long term NHL viable arena, Winnipeg is DFL. And their franchise has even less hope because every sort of big time player they'll get will eventually want out anyways (see Kane, Evander). It was a nice story seeing it come back, but long term its never going to work unless a couple of miraculous things happen (namely, getting Connor McDavid or getting realigned back into a crappy division).

[SeeBass]

well it appears you just want to make up facts so I guess we are done.^

[Locke]

They're a bad team in a small market with poor revenue from a barely suitable stadium and the shiny appeal of being new has worn off.

It doesnt matter what team it is, when they start playing badly people dont want to spend the money to go see them. The issue here is that in an economy of scale that hurts Winnipeg more than most teams.

[burn_baby_burn]

I don't think Flames fans should be pointing any fingers. Except for the fact that Jets fans are getting fed up after only three seasons. Flames and Oilers fans are either a lot more patient, or we are just poor consumers. Spending good money on a consistently bad product.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

well it appears you just want to make up facts so I guess we are done.^

Here's a pretty devastating fact: In 2011, the most hyped year the Jets will ever have they finished...16th in revenue. For fun, every other Canadian team is ahead of them including the struggling Oilers and Flames. Should be fun getting people to re-up for possible 3-5 year season ticket packages for a team that has no hope or direction, and seems destined to be mediocre for the next decade. Oh and for a premium on what they paid before.

You're obviously of the opinion the commitment level of the fans will not only stay high, but grow, because who stays commited to a losing franchise? Any attendance dropoff (even 1,500 people a night) will significantly hurt the bottom line (or be made up through increases elsewhere). You have hope, and thats nice, but reality and unbiased examination indicates the Jets could be in trouble very soon. Unless you think people are going to pay the second highest ticket prices in the league to watch a loser (you'll say the Leafs, I'll say 6 million people versus 750,000).

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Flames and Oilers fans are either a lot more patient, or we are just poor consumers. Spending good money on a consistently bad product.

I believe a lot of that has to do with almost double the amount of population base available to purchase tickets. Easier to find customers when you have double the amount of people available to purchase and a lot more corporate support.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

So is there something wrong with the smallest market in the NHL making middle of the pack revenue?

Why does Winnipeg need to be in the top 10 to be a viable team in some people's eyes?

This is their market, this is the size of rink they can fill, what the heck is the problem?

There's nothing wrong with middle of the pack revenues but you missed the point in that middle of the pack is their peak. This is as good as it's going to get in the current building. There is nowhere to go but down from there and when it does go down we will be talking about the smallest Canadian market making bottom 1/3 revenues. Maybe not the end of the world but not exactly good. Throw in the fact that Winnipeg is likely the least desirable team of all the Canadian teams to most UFA's and you can see that the Jets have a lot of obstacles in their path.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I don't think Flames fans should be pointing any fingers. Except for the fact that Jets fans are getting fed up after only three seasons. Flames and Oilers fans are either a lot more patient, or we are just poor consumers. Spending good money on a consistently bad product.

I'm just saying, its an economy of scale.

When most teams arent doing very well it isnt as bad financially because the loss of ticket sales makes up a significantly smaller percentage of overall revenue compared to a team like Winnipeg.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The over 100,000 extra tickets TNSE sells for non sporting events are all the evidence you should need.

Out of genuine curiosity, I'd like to see your source for that number.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I don't think Flames fans should be pointing any fingers. Except for the fact that Jets fans are getting fed up after only three seasons. Flames and Oilers fans are either a lot more patient, or we are just poor consumers. Spending good money on a consistently bad product.

I agree that Flames fans need to take a look in the mirror here. What we are talking about in Winnipeg is a soft re-sale market. Calgary's had the same issue for about four years now. The primary market is strong in both cases.

[White Out 403]

It really seems like there's some here who just want to see the Jets fail. So the Jets peak is 15th in revenue (which will go up as they expand their business in Winnipeg with a casino). But assuming the best they can do is 15th, what's wrong with that? Calgary and Edmonton are peaked out too at 10-14th spots. Maybe they can get into the top 10 with new buildings.

I would think that the smallest market in the NHL being able to come up with top half league revenues is something to celebrate as a win for the NHL. Instead of the Flames and Oilers paying for Atlanta to exist, now they can keep the money because Winnipeg is self sufficient.

Sometimes people's views on cities and provinces take time to adjust. At one point the Rough Riders were a complete joke, but now that province and city have a pretty damn good economy and the Riders are the cash cow of the CFL. Winnipeg isn't a dead city anymore; they have a half decent economy now and we love our Jets. They aren't going anywhere for a very long time.

[SeeBass]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There's nothing wrong with middle of the pack revenues but you missed the point in that middle of the pack is their peak. This is as good as it's going to get in the current building. There is nowhere to go but down from there and when it does go down we will be talking about the smallest Canadian market making bottom 1/3 revenues. Maybe not the end of the world but not exactly good. Throw in the fact that Winnipeg is likely the least desirable team of all the Canadian teams to most UFA's and you can see that the Jets have a lot of obstacles in their path.

So again what is wrong with being profitable but less profitable than others in the smallest market in the NHL?

If there was a lower 1/3 US club making just enough profits to take care of themselves you would be fine with it but because it is a Canadian club it needs to be a flagship franchise for some reason, that is unrealistic.


The article talks about widespread single ticket sales on game day. No evidence no collaboration from TNSE just an article released when the team is on a poor home losing skid. They are just selling papers here not this doom that some on here really would prefer to happen.

At this point all of the guys who said it wont work blah blah blah are wrong and all of the opinions with no facts to prove otherwise.

Until I see TNSE or the NHL make a statement about poor revenues in Winnipeg the critics and guesses to date are wrong and that is a fact.

[Senator Clay Davis]

I don't think any of us want the Jets to fail, but reality is reality. A city with a metro population that is 40% smaller than every other team in the league just has a much, much lower margin for error. It has to be sellouts every night, with high ticket prices. Hard to justify that for a team that doesn't appear to be anywhere close to a playoff contender, let alone a Cup contender.

Then you have to remember that Calgary and Edmonton are more desireable cities to live in than Winnipeg...and they stuggle mightly to attract free agents. Winnipeg is never going to be a place anyone who wasn't born there wants to play for. Attracting high end FAs will be a monumnetally difficult task, even more so if the franchise isn't a winning franchise. So again unless the Jets hit home runs with some draft picks, its difficult to see them being competitive for much, especially again when they are in a brutal division (4th place looks like best case scenario for a while).

Eventually you have to remember True North is a business, and if the Jets are losing money they will sell them or try and move them (or leverage taxpayers into a new building). You can say how committed TN is, but no one is committed to losing money.

[SeeBass]

Can anybody give me a list of all the clubs who everybody wants to play for when they are a losing team? I don't think it would be a very big list should be pretty easy to make.

I bet I can make a list of clubs everybody wants to play for much easier and surprise surprise they are also winning.

A perfect example is Detroit watch this place fall of the UFA map in the next couple of years.