Burke Philosophy VS Feaster Philosophy

[moon]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Agree that Burke was probably referencing the Jankowski pick when he said that the team couldn't afford to screw up drafting. But consider that Burke would have probably picked Oleksiak (big physical d) over Baertschi in 2011. Too much of a philosophical gap for the two to work together.

He took Kadri over Cowen in the 2009 draft so no sure thing that he goes for the big defenseman.

[macrov]

Two statements are coming up a lot in this thread that I disagree with:

- I dont think Feaster was building a small team
- I dont think Feaster hasn't changed his philosophy over time


Feaster saw 3 problems with the team when he takes over. First, we have no cap space. Second, we lack skill. Third, we have to get younger. This assessment was accurate at the time.
Response: He tries to go about acquiring younger and cheaper players that have skill in return for more expensive players, older players, or players that don't have skills. He also tries to add skill via free agency.

-Regehr is traded for Butler; Kotalik dump : More cap space (6 mln), get younger
-Langkow is traded for Stempniak: Get younger
-Bourque is traded for Cammy, Ramo: Add skill, goaltending depth, 2-way player for one-way player
-Signs Hudler: Adds skill, 2-way forward added
-Signs Wideman: Adds skill
-Byron for a 2nd: Skill and 2-way forward added
- trade for Blair Jones: 2-way forward added, got younger

2) Feaster admits he overestimated the team, and its time to rebuild and accelerate his vision. He clearly knows that big, skilled guys don't come cheap, in terms of payroll or trade value. So he's goes about looking for undervalued assets - both because they will be skilled and they will be inexpensive. So he starts by looking for players that are undervalued, have low cap hits, and have skill.

He trades Jaybo and Iggy, requiring a 1st round pick for each because of the strongest draft in 10-years. Which makes it the perfect environment for drafting big, highly skilled, 2-way forwards.

-Iginla for 1st round pick, 2 prospects: Adds 2 2-way prospects, 1st round pick in a very strong draft. Dumps salary
-JayBo for 1st, 2 prospects: Adds depth, and a 1st round pick in a very strong draft. Dumps salary
-Tanguay for Jones: Trade for size and a 2-way player (Jones is 29)
-Sarich for SOB: Get younger
-Colborne for a 4th : Get Younger, Add size (Colborne is 23)
-Russel for a 5th: Get younger, add skill (Russel is 26)
-Galiardi for a 4th: Get younger, add size, 2-way player (Galiardi is 25)
-Smid for Horak: Add skill, size, character, youth (Smid is 27)

In my opinion, all the moves since he's taken over are fairly consistent with his philosophy. But rebuilding takes time. Its not going to happen in 1 year.

And for those who suggest he's purposefully building a "small team," see his draft record. He's clearly going for skill, hockey smarts, and 2-way players. Size isn't irrelevant, but he is willing to draft a few HIGHLY skilled small players. Remember all these kids drafted are still growing:

Monahan: highly skilled, highly intelligent, 2 way forward, 6'2
Porier: highly skilled, highly intelligent, 2 way forward, 6ft
Klimchuk: 2 way forward, skilled, 5'11
Agostino: 2 way forward, skilled, 6'1
Hanowski: 2 way forward. 6'2
Ferland: skilled, 6'0
Gadreau: Highly skilled, small
Baertchi: Highly skilled, small
Granlund: Highly skilled, small
Seiloff: 6'0, high intelligence
Wotherspoon: 6'1, high intelligence
Reinhart: 6'1, 2-way player
Jankowski: 6'2
Knight: 6'1, 2-way player
Kanzig: 6'7, high intelligence
Roy: 6'3

Everything he's done since coming in has been consistent with his philosophy. He was not building a small team.

[Hockeyboy2]

Originally Posted by moon

Agreed that Hudler is smart offensively but I don't think the OP said that Feaster looks for guys who are only offensive intelligent.

Russell not a really good defensive player, he is fine/adequate there so far this year and good wasn't the criteria used in the OP.



There is no way that he plays well in his own end but no point arguing back and forth if you actually think he plays well there as we will not agree, he is a disaster defensively.

I can say I hate a player based on never meeting them because I am talking about them as a player not personally. I don't know or care about Wideman personally let alone hate him.

And I think Weideman is just fine in his own end, so yes we are in agreement there is no point arguing because we are definitely not going to come to an agreement.

And no "hate" is a very inproper way to talk about someone as a player. I'm glad you dont hate a guy youve never met personally and who has not harmed society in any sort of way because that would be pretty bizzarre if you did.

[MisterJoji]

Moon Posts:

Not sure what you think this adds to the thread or topic but I have defended the statements in here with examples other than personal attacks like you have resorted to.

What is the point of this garbage post?
You whine about others posting while this is your contribution to the thread?

Plenty of people do and if the best thing you have is personal attacks pretty easy to see how weak your argument is.

And this is just from the last 12 hours. When you have to constantly throw up posts like these, maybe you should realize that YOU are the problem. It's not a "whoa is me" situation in that no one understands or agrees with your insighttful and wise posts, it's more a situation that you are constantly passive aggressive and antagonistic. Just a thought.

[moon]

I think based on your criteria for hockey smarts/intelligence every team in the NHL is building based on that and 95% of guys drafted have hockey IQ intelligence.

What makes Sieloff, Kanzig, Wotherspoon, Poirier anymore intelligent than Reilly, Finn, Percy?

[moon]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

And this is just from the last 12 hours. When you have to constantly throw up posts like these, maybe you should realize that YOU are the problem. It's not a "whoa is me" situation in that no one understands or agrees with your insighttful and wise posts, it's more a situation that you are constantly passive aggressive and antagonistic. Just a thought.

If people have a problem with me or my posting take it to PM's or ignore it.

Posts like the ones you posted and your post do nothing to change my posting and only clutter up threads and take them off topic.

If my posts are as bad as you say report them and the mods will handle it.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by moon

I think based on your criteria for hockey smarts/intelligence every team in the NHL is building based on that and 95% of guys drafted have hockey IQ intelligence.

What makes Sieloff, Kanzig, Wotherspoon, Poirier anymore intelligent than Reilly, Finn, Percy?

lol...You picked the 3 best prospects in the Toronto system as a comparison? Yes, the top 3 prospects on any team better be highly intelligent players. They better be projected to make the NHL. They better be good ####ing players if they're your top 3 prospects.

What I'm showing is that there are 15+ prospects that Feaster has picked out, and all of them have reports stating their decision making and hockey iq is above par.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Feaster has indeed changed waffled on his building a team for a while. It seemed whatever the press was at him about, he would change direction.

For instance, when he took over, Darryl was known for taking the 'big western hockey kids with limited skill' (which isn't true at all - Darryl took a lot of small and skilled players - heck, he drafted Russian!). However, Feaster seemed to make a point of drafting the highest skilled players possible.

When the team became too easy to play against, he then went and stated that he wants the team to be bigger, and leave bruises on the opponents. Didn't see him follow through with this.

Also, why do people assume Feaster is the one with "High hockey IQ, Character", etc., in bringing that philosophy to Calgary? It was NOT him. If you think so, go search Todd Button's review of the 2010 draft picks at the draft. One thing he keeps stating over and over again was how 'smart' these players were, and how they were drafted for high hockey IQ and character, etc. This was a philosophical change in Calgary's drafting under Sutter, NOT Feaster.

I think Feaster listened to Button, and rolled with it. I am glad he did so. It was not him that brought this to the Flames, however. I can't really think of too many things that Feaster actually brought to the Flames, other than not being an expert in anything, and hiring a 'brain-trust' to surround himself with.

The one skill he brought to the team was that he is a lawyer - then how come the RoR thing was so screwed up?

It sounds like I am overly-harsh on Feaster. I really didn't like the hire to begin with, and I don't think he was ever a good manager. The one thing I liked about him was that he was adding to the scouting staff, and leaving the scouts to do what they do best. I am a little bit apprehensive actually that he is gone, as I feel Burke might be a bit of a 'bully' and actually shut-down some scouts from providing their real opinions, which I am really hoping I am wrong on.

Feaster was a good communicator and facilitator from what I hear. That was about it as far as it goes to what he brought to the team. I don't hate him, but I don't mind that he is gone at all. Just a bit apprehensive if the seemingly much improved drafting org gets modified (for the worse) under Burke.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by moon

If people have a problem with me or my posting take it to PM's or ignore it.

Posts like the ones you posted and your post do nothing to change my posting and only clutter up threads and take them off topic.

If my posts are as bad as you say report them and the mods will handle it.

Settle down big shooter. There's nothing too inflammatory in your posts per se, nothing reportable. I'm just saying when you have to constantly defend yourself time after time after time after time, it's not because we're all picking on you, it's because you constantly feel the need to egg people on and it appears as if you go out of your way to try and frustrate everyone with your garbage.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by macrov

And for those who suggest he's purposefully building a "small team," see his draft record. He's clearly going for skill, hockey smarts, and 2-way players. Size isn't irrelevant, but he is willing to draft a few HIGHLY skilled small players. Remember all these kids drafted are still growing:

Monahan: highly skilled, highly intelligent, 2 way forward, 6'2
Porier: highly skilled, highly intelligent, 2 way forward, 6ft
Klimchuk: 2 way forward, skilled, 5'11
Agostino: 2 way forward, skilled, 6'1
Hanowski: 2 way forward. 6'2
Ferland: skilled, 6'0
Gadreau: Highly skilled, small
Baertchi: Highly skilled, small
Granlund: Highly skilled, small
Seiloff: 6'0, high intelligence
Wotherspoon: 6'1, high intelligence
Reinhart: 6'1, 2-way player
Jankowski: 6'2
Knight: 6'1, 2-way player
Kanzig: 6'7, high intelligence
Roy: 6'3

Everything he's done since coming in has been consistent with his philosophy. He was not building a small team.

Those were Darryl Sutter picks.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Feaster has indeed changed waffled on his building a team for a while. It seemed whatever the press was at him about, he would change direction.

For instance, when he took over, Darryl was known for taking the 'big western hockey kids with limited skill' (which isn't true at all - Darryl took a lot of small and skilled players - heck, he drafted Russian!). However, Feaster seemed to make a point of drafting the highest skilled players possible.

When the team became too easy to play against, he then went and stated that he wants the team to be bigger, and leave bruises on the opponents. Didn't see him follow through with this.

Also, why do people assume Feaster is the one with "High hockey IQ, Character", etc., in bringing that philosophy to Calgary? It was NOT him. If you think so, go search Todd Button's review of the 2010 draft picks at the draft. One thing he keeps stating over and over again was how 'smart' these players were, and how they were drafted for high hockey IQ and character, etc. This was a philosophical change in Calgary's drafting under Sutter, NOT Feaster.

I think Feaster listened to Button, and rolled with it. I am glad he did so. It was not him that brought this to the Flames, however. I can't really think of too many things that Feaster actually brought to the Flames, other than not being an expert in anything, and hiring a 'brain-trust' to surround himself with.

The one skill he brought to the team was that he is a lawyer - then how come the RoR thing was so screwed up?

It sounds like I am overly-harsh on Feaster. I really didn't like the hire to begin with, and I don't think he was ever a good manager. The one thing I liked about him was that he was adding to the scouting staff, and leaving the scouts to do what they do best. I am a little bit apprehensive actually that he is gone, as I feel Burke might be a bit of a 'bully' and actually shut-down some scouts from providing their real opinions, which I am really hoping I am wrong on.

Feaster was a good communicator and facilitator from what I hear. That was about it as far as it goes to what he brought to the team. I don't hate him, but I don't mind that he is gone at all. Just a bit apprehensive if the seemingly much improved drafting org gets modified (for the worse) under Burke.

I hope so. This would make me most happy. Hopefully Burke doesn't change a thing

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by macrov

I hope so. This would make me most happy. Hopefully Burke doesn't change a thing

Well, I do hope there is change. I don't think Flames have been perfect, but they are much improved. I just hope Burke adds to it, like Feaster has added to Sutter's increasingly better drafts (which went from 'horrible' to 'mediocre', but it is improvement!).

But yes, I really hope Burke doesn't change the fundamentals of what the Flames are looking for in their prospects.

[Hockeyboy2]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Well, I do hope there is change. I don't think Flames have been perfect, but they are much improved. I just hope Burke adds to it, like Feaster has added to Sutter's increasingly better drafts (which went from 'horrible' to 'mediocre', but it is improvement!).

But yes, I really hope Burke doesn't change the fundamentals of what the Flames are looking for in their prospects.

I hope so too however I think he looks for much different things in young players than Jay Feaster or John Weisbrod would.

The true litmus test will be the 2014 NHL draft.

Unless of course we somehow get Michael DelColle, I think he would be cant miss for anybody who will be selecting in the 4-7 overall range.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Friedman was mentioning that Burke looks at overvaluing advanced stats with derision. Feaster mentioned increased use of these and the Pucks system. I suspect this is part of the philosophical disconnect. Friedman even pretty much said that Burke goes to meetings of guys discussing advanced stats to pretty much be, how shall we say, a very strong devils advocate.

I think Feaster actually got a lot of decent pieces that have value, and perhaps needed to distance himself from them emotionally to parlay some of them into useful pieces that fit the blueprint with which Burke is on board.

[dying4acup]

Originally Posted by Hockeyboy2

I hope so too however I think he looks for much different things in young players than Jay Feaster or John Weisbrod would.

The true litmus test will be the 2014 NHL draft.

The litmus test will be the 2015 draft.

To add to that, it will be established in rounds 2-7, when there is room for interpretation, as opposed to round when, when picks 1-10 are pretty close to by the book.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Well, I do hope there is change. I don't think Flames have been perfect, but they are much improved. I just hope Burke adds to it, like Feaster has added to Sutter's increasingly better drafts (which went from 'horrible' to 'mediocre', but it is improvement!).

But yes, I really hope Burke doesn't change the fundamentals of what the Flames are looking for in their prospects.

I honestly think the last 3 years of drafting has been amazing. Granted, it takes 5-years to get a good feel if a draft class has panned out, and Monahan doesn't count because he was obviously the best player available...

But, the last 3 years look pretty awesome right now.

2011 looks amazing. Probably the best in the league. Baertchi looks like a great pick, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gadreau. Amazing. Potentially 5 NHLers.

2012 looks good. I still think Jankowski is "on track" given we we're told we'd have to wait 5-years to know if he panned out. And looking at the draft class, we clearly missed nothing special (which is basicly how Feaster characterized the draft at the time of the pick) except Tomas Hertl, who seemed to be a diamond in the rough looking at the picks around him. Anyways, Jankowski should be compared with the draft class of 2013 given his age, was invited to team Canada this summer for the wjc, and has made a smooth transition from W to C, and is creating amazing chances for himself on a very low scoring team with ####ty linemates. Otherwise, Sieloff and Gilles look amazing, while Culkin and Kulak are looking "on track."

2013: All of Monahan, Porier, Klimchuk, and Kanzig are playing extremely well

[DOOM]

moon is always good for a drunken Saturday night laugh....keep it up

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Well a big difference would be despite these "philosophical" attempts, those teams are playoff teams and the Flames are a lottery team.

They way Sutter left this team, with a core of 30-somethings on the downsides of their career and the worst prospect pool in the NHL, his successor was doomed to failure. Feaster had the thankless task of dismantling a team two years too late, and then suffering the early years of a rebuild. I don't think any GM in the league could have turned around the team Sutter left in anything less than 5 years. The only way this team would have been a playoff team in the last three years was by trading away more first rounders. At least Feaster stopped the bleeding and stabilized the patient.

[DOOM]

Originally Posted by moon

I think based on your criteria for hockey smarts/intelligence every team in the NHL is building based on that and 95% of guys drafted have hockey IQ intelligence.

What makes Sieloff, Kanzig, Wotherspoon, Poirier anymore intelligent than Reilly, Finn, Percy?

Nothing that you would judge fairly.

Hilarious that you didn't include Biggs, whatever helps you......eh moon?

[Scoreface]

Originally Posted by macrov

I honestly think the last 3 years of drafting has been amazing. Granted, it takes 5-years to get a good feel if a draft class has panned out, and Monahan doesn't count because he was obviously the best player available...

But, the last 3 years look pretty awesome right now.

2011 looks amazing. Probably the best in the league. Baertchi looks like a great pick, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gadreau. Amazing. Potentially 5 NHLers.

2012 looks good. I still think Jankowski is "on track" given we we're told we'd have to wait 5-years to know if he panned out. And looking at the draft class, we clearly missed nothing special (which is basicly how Feaster characterized the draft at the time of the pick) except Tomas Hertl, who seemed to be a diamond in the rough looking at the picks around him. Anyways, Jankowski should be compared with the draft class of 2013 given his age, was invited to team Canada this summer for the wjc, and has made a smooth transition from W to C, and is creating amazing chances for himself on a very low scoring team with ####ty linemates. Otherwise, Sieloff and Gilles look amazing, while Culkin and Kulak are looking "on track."

2013: All of Monahan, Porier, Klimchuk, and Kanzig are playing extremely well

We'll see how they develop or even stay in the system. Some may be traded for a prospect or two. Some may have a cup of coffee with the Flames/elsewhere. The odd one will pan out hopefully. Monahan should, I think.

Please send your shoelaces and belt to: Anywhere.

If you're lucky, postage will be free to Edmonton, since it's mostly koolaid, sweatpants, and velcro/dress shoes in that locale.