[News] Feaster and Weisbrod relieved of duties. Burke will hire a new GM

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Red John

Little late joining the party, but want to chime in regarding "meddling".

It's obvious the new GM is going to be that in title only - he'll handle the day to day operations but make no mistake this will be Burke's team and he'll be driving the bus.

It's a risky hierarchy that hasn't worked for most teams but it can work provided the right people are doing the meddling.

It's almost never mentioned but look at the Chicago Blackhawks. Stan Bowman may be GM but its public that all decisions are made as a team between himself, Scotty Bowman, and John McDonagh (who in fact fired Dale Tallon because Tallon didn't involve him enough - he just waited for Tallon to make a mistake he could scapegoat him over).

So far that model has worked well for the Hawks. Pretty much every signing/trade they've made has worked out for them.

Having watched the presser it's obvious Burke is only not becoming GM himself because he promised ownership that wasn't his intention when he was first hired and wants to stick to his word. Make no mistake he has no desire to be a figurehead in an office as an "advisor"...he wants to run a team.

Burke also alluded to the fact that there may be another GM hire in a few years again (regarding Conroy). It looks like he may want to start a hire and promote-from-within type cycle. Not sure what his plans would be for the outgoing GM at that point - create another position?

Just some food for thought. Bottom line - this complicated structure has a better chance at working when the guy at the top is competent.

This. On the bright side it's better to have a hockey guy meddling than (allegedly) King or ownership

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by trackercowe

That draft history is actually pretty decent when you think about it. Schenn and Kadri both look like quality players, and they are expecting great things out of Reilly. They had no first rounder in 2010 because of the Kessel trade. So really his only terrible year was in 2011, and when you look at that draft there was not a whole lot of decent players taken after the Leafs picks.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2011e.html

It's hard to be critical of someones drafting in a year like that, when the apparent depth of the draft seems to be incredibly low.

Not saying Burke had a stellar record in Toronto, as he got nothing out of lower picks (so far), but even with Kadri alone he's done better than the Flames post-Phaneuf (not including Monahan).

Oh, that's cute. "Even if Burke only drafted one good player, he's better than Calgary... but only if you pretend the Flames didn't draft that one good player."

Kadri looks like he is growing into a solid player. Luke Schenn is pretty much just an NHL player. Nothing real special there, but he will have a long career. After that, mighty slim pickings. Monahan, Bouma and Brodie alone put the Flames ahead over the same period.

Ultimately though, that is neither here nor there. As others have mentioned, drafting depends on scouting. If Burke has better scouts (or is more likely to listen to them) in Calgary than he had in Toronto, his record will improve.

[taxbuster]

I find it interesting to read the criticisms of each GM in turn...it seems that many think that being a GM is a science. It has rules and obvious blind alleys, clear choices and simplistic decision-making.

The best GMs are those that seem to have the art of it down well - and even they make mistakes. The best learn from those mistakes and progress. The worst end up being fired and likely never end back up in the NHL.

And, even the best can be tripped up by circumstance, bad timing or just plain poor luck in a choice -- even one that everyone could agree on (not likely!) as a great choice. And the guy just....doesn't perform ..... in the new environment. It happens.

The one thing BB brings to the table - whether you like him or not - is instant credibility. He kept a pretty low profile publicly (I guess now we know why) and even in the Flames office. Apparently he wasn't shy about canvassing other GMs though, so clearly "some" had an idea as to what he was or might have been doing. Now that he's made his move the Flames have regained some of their lost stature. That doesn't matter in some ways - but it does to the GMs making deals and to agents working with sought-after players. Hopefully that lesson isn't lost on management and ownership.

My only real curiosity is the double-initials thing....KK, BB, CC.

[return to the red]

Good luck to Feaster but ya it's the right thing to do. When it came to trades Feaster just lacked creativeness I think. I, along with many others, was pretty underwhelmed by the returns for Bouwmeester and Iginla and always had it in my mind that if we had a more creative GM at the helm we could have attained more assets by creating a better package around those key pieces and making the return much more favourable for Calgary

Fun times this trade deadline though if Burke is handling stuff!

[PeteMoss]

Regarding the Blackhawks/Pens vs Kings/Bruins model. The Blackhawks/Pens model works if you're willing to be extremely terrible (or get incredibly lucky with the lottery in Pitttsburgh's case) and get high picks for a few years. The Pens have Malkin/Crosby, Hawks have Toews/Kane drafted in top 2.

The Flames aren't any good this year and weren't any good last year and we still aren't getting top two picks. With the cap floor its even harder.. its not like we can just trade Hudler/Cammy/Gio for picks and suck for two years. They'd still have to sign guys to hit the floor.

Bruins/Kings didn't have top 2 picks, they were bad but not Oilers bad. The Blues had a number one pick who was a bust (E.Johnson).

Unless you want to terribly suck (or manage to pull superstars out in the late rounds like the Red Wings)... the Hawks/Pens model is a tough one to follow.

Edit: The Penguins picked 5th, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 2nd in 5 drafts in a row. The end results obviously worked out... but would you really want to to suck that badly for that long and then hope and pray you're getting a Crosby and Malkin instead of a RNH and Yakapov.

[OzSome]

Originally Posted by dirk diggler

i just hope he doesnt turn into a Jerry Jones/Dan Snyder type of owner that has to meddle with everything. that never works

Why do you think Murray Edwards is responsible for this? Ownership hired Brian Burke to be the President of Hockey Operation so he doesn't have to worry about the hockey side. I don't see any meddling of the owners in this firing. This is all Brian Burke. Do you think an egotistical Burke will let Edwards meddle with his operation. For the last few years, i've been reading CP people claiming the ownership meddles with hockey decision but it's all speculations and no proof.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by OzSome

Why do you think Murray Edwards is responsible for this? Ownership hired Brian Burke to be the President of Hockey Operation so he doesn't have to worry about the hockey side. I don't see any meddling of the owners in this firing. This is all Brian Burke. Do you think an egotistical Burke will let Edwards meddle with his operation. For the last few years, i've been reading CP people claiming the ownership meddles with hockey decision but it's all speculations and no proof.

One thing about the firing is that I expect Feaster to lay it all out there in the open again in a blog. Didn't he provide detailed reasons when he was a blogger as to why he left Tampa? He has already stated that he was never prevented from making a move, and never forced to make a move. Will be interesting to see what he eventually has to say about this organization once he is no longer employed.

(I for one don't believe there is, outside of the occasional "This was your plan, and we suck. What is going on?" talks to ensure the people the owners hired are actually doing their jobs competently, like a normal boss would do?).

[Hockey_Ninja]

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

One thing about the firing is that I expect Feaster to lay it all out there in the open again in a blog. Didn't he provide detailed reasons when he was a blogger as to why he left Tampa? He has already stated that he was never prevented from making a move, and never forced to make a move. Will be interesting to see what he eventually has to say about this organization once he is no longer employed.

(I for one don't believe there is, outside of the occasional "This was your plan, and we suck. What is going on?" talks to ensure the people the owners hired are actually doing their jobs competently, like a normal boss would do?).

I doubt he's going to rip the organization in anyway if he wants to get another NHL job somewhere.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Lots of talk about Joe Nieuwendyk not being interested in the job. His teenage kids are in school in Dallas, and he does not want to move them.

Heard this on the radio this mornig with Elliot Freidman.

[thefoss1957]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Regarding the Blackhawks/Pens vs Kings/Bruins model. The Blackhawks/Pens model works if you're willing to be extremely terrible (or get incredibly lucky with the lottery in Pitttsburgh's case) and get high picks for a few years. The Pens have Malkin/Crosby, Hawks have Toews/Kane drafted in top 2.

Pete...Only Kane was "top 2"...The first #1 pick in 'Hawk history...Toews was #3...and I submit, as good as these two are, it is the gems in round 2 and up that they've developed, along with getting complimentary FAs that fit the style of play they've installed, AND the total depth in that, even if the 3rd or 4th line is caught out on the ice what would normally seem to be a disadvantageous match-up, all are competent enough in the 200 ft. game to not be outmatched so badly...even the guys on line 4 can get a respectable cycle going against other team's best. This was true of both Cup winning rosters...Q seems to like to match particular lines, but still can and often does have 4 lines rolled in all situations, with some degree of comfort.

The quotes I saw of Burke's, about wanting "Black and Blue", reminded me of Sutter hockey...and both our teams had only limited success with THAT style...and the forward roster for that was the old Two "scoring" lines, one "checking" line, and a 4th line of specialists (PK guys, enforcers, etc.)...easier to match up against, and liable to be exploited when the lesser lines are caught out.

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by OzSome

Why do you think Murray Edwards is responsible for this? Ownership hired Brian Burke to be the President of Hockey Operation so he doesn't have to worry about the hockey side. I don't see any meddling of the owners in this firing. This is all Brian Burke. Do you think an egotistical Burke will let Edwards meddle with his operation. For the last few years, i've been reading CP people claiming the ownership meddles with hockey decision but it's all speculations and no proof.

Just remember hearing on the hot stove on HNIC last year that their were concerns that he was hanging around the locker room... i just said i hope he doesnt become that and perhaps you are right, i cant imagine Burke going somewhere where he will be a puppet...

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by OzSome

For the last few years, i've been reading CP people claiming the ownership meddles with hockey decision but it's all speculations and no proof.

It hasn't just been CP people making that claim. Plugged in hockey people like Duhatschek and now Friedman are pointing out that their contacts in the league - genuine NHL players, agents, managers, etc. - see the Flames as a team with a lot of meddling in management of the team.

As for Edwards, I believe his meddling was in the form of wanting to keep Iginla in Calgary. That alone probably set back the rebuild by two years. If you're a prospective GM who believes the Flames have to rebuild, and yet ownership won't let you move by far the best asset to gain picks and prospects, how attractive does the job look?

[Hells Bells]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Lots of talk about Joe Nieuwendyk not being interested in the job. His teenage kids are in school in Dallas, and he does not want to move them.

Heard this on the radio this mornig with Elliot Freidman.

That's good news IMO.

I'd rather Feaster in charge over Nieuwendyk.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

Lots of talk about Joe Nieuwendyk not being interested in the job.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Itse

What I'm uncomfortable with is Burke's idea that there is one model.

Last champions: 'Hawks, Kings, Bruins, 'Hawks, Penguins, Wings, Ducks, Hurricanes.

Kings, Bruins and Ducks fit the model, 'Hawks, Penguins, Wings Hurricanes don't, so really, generally speaking the bruising team isn't the one that wins the championship.

The Blackhawks are a team that plays hard, so they tend to look bigger than they are, but it's not about size. It's about having good players and a good team mix.

And that drafting record is absolutely horrid, and since Burke is exactly the type that will meddle with the decisions, I have a hard time believing that it's somehow a product of inferior Leafs scouting.

I guess we'll see. But if there's one thing I've learned to trust as a Flames fan, it's poor management and mediocre coaching.

I'm too lazy to look, but weren't the Hawks last in the league for hits last season?

Obviously this is partially to do with their puck possession, but it's not like they play a bruising game (not to say they are small). The Hawks out-skill their competition.

Burke seems to like the Biggs/Gauthier/Gaunce/Nemisz type players who really have limited upside but are more likely to fit on a team's 3rd/4th line and be a physical presence.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Oh, that's cute. "Even if Burke only drafted one good player, he's better than Calgary... but only if you pretend the Flames didn't draft that one good player."

Kadri looks like he is growing into a solid player. Luke Schenn is pretty much just an NHL player. Nothing real special there, but he will have a long career. After that, mighty slim pickings. Monahan, Bouma and Brodie alone put the Flames ahead over the same period.

Ultimately though, that is neither here nor there. As others have mentioned, drafting depends on scouting. If Burke has better scouts (or is more likely to listen to them) in Calgary than he had in Toronto, his record will improve.

I don't think he was in charge of Luke Schenn draft. He wasn't allowed to participate iirc as he had inside knowledge of ducks draft. Trader Cliff made that pick. Which I think was a good one.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Baertschi, hudler, cammalleri, backlund, Stajan...is just wayyyyy too small up front.

Backlund and Stajan are not small. Sure they're not big but "not big" does not = small.

[lifetimefan]

[getbak]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

I don't think he was in charge of Luke Schenn draft. He wasn't allowed to participate iirc as he had inside knowledge of ducks draft. Trader Cliff made that pick. Which I think was a good one.

He was still the Ducks GM at that point. He left the Ducks in November 2008 and joined the Leafs two weeks later. Schenn likely would have been sent back to junior that year if Burke had been around from the beginning.