Should the City reconsider the snow removal policy? [Split from weather]

[burn_this_city]

I think Hack answered that question. My friend's father was a plow driver for years, they spent all summer sitting in a quonset playing cards, occasionally driving a gravel truck on a delivery. I read this morning that Nenshi is open to potentially subcontracting some city services, I wonder if snow removal is one possibility.

[puckluck2]

Thanks Kevanguy for making this its own thread.

[jammies]

Just last year people were praising the City for how much better the snow removal was. How often do we get these large accumulations of snow that overwhelm the system? Is it even possible to have a slush fund that will adequately cover this kind of event - where do the extra snowplows come from? Who operates them? Building slack capacity in is going to cost more every year, not just years that the slack is taken up.

One of the reasons we don't have snow removal like some other Canadian cities is that the chinooks DO clear a lot of the snow. It's not guaranteed to happen at any particular time, but it's guaranteed to happen a couple times at least every winter. Do we really need Winnipeg/Edmonton levels of service when the weather here isn't like those cities?

Not that I'm saying the last week and a half wasn't a big problem, but I think a reactive solution based only on the worst case would be a very bad idea. I'd rather see other initiatives, like declaring "snow tire only" days, looking into what can be done about the seeming inability of city buses to deal with masses of snow, and co-ordinating volunteers to dig out and assist motorists.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think Hack answered that question. My friend's father was a plow driver for years, they spent all summer sitting in a quonset playing cards, occasionally driving a gravel truck on a delivery. I read this morning that Nenshi is open to potentially subcontracting some city services, I wonder if snow removal is one possibility.

I assume this is in response to my post.

And for the record, I was not trying to be snotting in my question.

I just wonder if a "for profit" company really would deliver the service cheaper than a public entity. I don't really know to be honest. I do know that every "for profit" company I deal with at work (my company included) tries to pass on increased/unexpected costs to the customer.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I assume this is in response to my post.

And for the record, I was not trying to be snotting in my question.

I just wonder if a "for profit" company really would deliver the service cheaper than a public entity. I don't really know to be honest. I do know that every "for profit" company I deal with at work (my company included) tries to pass on increased/unexpected costs to the customer.

If the service is better than I don't see why you wouldn't go subcontract. I worry about the quality of the snow removal on Deerfoot if the city takes that road back over.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I know in Winnipeg the fund carries over year by year. So if they have $50M set aside and only use $45M, the next year they have $55M available. Most of the time it works out, as one year you have less snow and the next year you have more.

As for the cost of plowing every side street, it was a number of years ago but I seem to recall the number being $5M to plow every side street. It came up as "It would cost $100M to plow every side street every time it snows; which would be 20 times per year." My arguement is that it doesn't have to be done after every snowfall. Just major snowfalls.

If somebody came by and told me that my share to have my street plowed would be $20 (4 people in my house), I would pay it without question right now.

Plowing side streets =/= removing the snow from the streets. Plowing would be doing what they do on snow routes. You end up with windrows on both side of the road.

Honestly, I'm fine with the current level of clearing. It costs a lot of money to do anything better.

I'm fine with some kind of a fund that carries over from year to year, but I suspect that in practice, it works like that anyway.

[btimbit]

This was a above average snowfall, and for the most part clearing has been better than it has in previous years. I don't think they need to quite tear down the current system quite yet.

Maybe rather than fully sub-contract out snow removal, like some have suggested, have some sort of system where if it's too much for the city to get to in a timely manner, temporarily subcontract out certain areas to companies like Carmacks.
Of course the flaw in that plan being that companies like Carmacks and Volker-Stevin were already running at full capacity taking care of their usual responsibilities, could they even get to more? Maybe not, but could offer some incentive for them and others to expand their operations.

Just thinking out loud.

[undercoverbrother]

If the province mandated winter tires, would this reduce the strain on snow removal?

[GP_Matt]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Citizens should register as official "snow angels" and get a tax break for taking care of excess snow on roads. There is manpower available all over the city (citizens) who are motivated to get this stuff cleared ASAP and some form of tax relief may be a good incentive.

City could provide registered "snow angels" with a proper shovel and an iPhone app that notifies them when they should remove snow based on snowfall projections or weather trends. Property size would have to come into play for tax break amount, but it could be a way of helping out. People can also sponsor a neighbour to be their angel which qualifies them for a bigger tax break or other incentive if said person can't do it themselves. And if an angel doesn't clear their roads? Neighbours can submit complaints and the City implements a three-strike rule or something to that effect.

Thoughts? Seems crazy but lets not discount how citizens could respond to this.

I live in Grande Prairie, but one of my neighbours has a blade on the front of his truck and he always makes a few passes on the road after it snows. I have a second neighbour with a skidsteer and a power brush who will drive up the sidewalk to clear all of the snow.
Both seem happy to do it but a tax incentive would go along way to spreading that throughout the city.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If the province mandated winter tires, would this reduce the strain on snow removal?

how effective are snow tires on smaller Corolla, Sentra type cars if they still have to drive through deep snow?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GP_Matt

I live in Grande Prairie, but one of my neighbours has a blade on the front of his truck and he always makes a few passes on the road after it snows. I have a second neighbour with a skidsteer and a power brush who will drive up the sidewalk to clear all of the snow.
Both seem happy to do it but a tax incentive would go along way to spreading that throughout the city.

I would be worried about mass number of people plowing the streets of their own accord.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If the province mandated winter tires, would this reduce the strain on snow removal?

This is what I want.

I want less snow removal. Leave it for major routes and that's it. Plowed side streets are more annoying than ones that are just left snowy. It's a huge waste of money. Let people spend that on winter tires instead, something that can actually save lives, instead of plowing roads where people are driving 40km/h.

In the event you get snow/melt/freeze to the point the ridges on the road are tearing up the undersides of cars, then send a plow down. Otherwise leave it.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by habernac

how effective are snow tires on smaller Corolla, Sentra type cars if they still have to drive through deep snow?

Valid point. But I would suggest they are significantly better than Corollas and Sentras without snow/winter tires, but I see you point and you are correct. The province should ban all compact/sub-compact cars from the roads during "snow months".

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I assume this is in response to my post.

And for the record, I was not trying to be snotting in my question.

I just wonder if a "for profit" company really would deliver the service cheaper than a public entity. I don't really know to be honest. I do know that every "for profit" company I deal with at work (my company included) tries to pass on increased/unexpected costs to the customer.

For a marginal, low-skill, seasonal service such as snow removal, I really believe that public (government) unions are a tremendous source of waste in terms of wasted labor, resources, and tax-payers money.

I was a government worker once. The stories you hear about how slack it is are really true, and I wasn't even unionized.

Set up a competition, make private companies compete for your business (plowing the City of Calgary or portions of it is an enormous, guaranteed yearly contract - a big giant pot of gold) and I'm sure that the engines of capitalism (especially with all the blue-collar labor and small businesses in this city) will make this process hundreds of times more efficient than what unionized civic employees are currently doing. Why are plow drivers even employed by the city out of season?! That's shocking enough to me to hear.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Valid point. But I would suggest they are significantly better than Corollas and Sentras without snow/winter tires, but I see you point and you are correct. The province should ban all compact/sub-compact cars from the roads during "snow months".

LOL. I have a Sentra and haven't moved it off the driveway since it snowed (we're at the top of a hill on a cul-de-sac that's never plowed).

It's tricky in this environment, especially when we get crazy weather like this past week where the temperature will swing 30 degrees and suddenly it goes from ice to deep slush in a matter of days.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

For a marginal, low-skill, seasonal service such as snow removal, I really believe that public (government) unions are a tremendous source of waste in terms of wasted labor, resources, and tax-payers money.

I was a government worker once. The stories you hear about how slack it is are really true, and I wasn't even unionized.

Set up a competition, make private companies compete for your business (plowing the City of Calgary is an enormous, guaranteed yearly contract - a big giant pot of gold) and I'm sure that the engines of capitalism (especially with all the blue-collar labor and small businesses in this city) will make this process hundreds of times more efficient than what unionized civic employees are currently doing. Why are plow drivers even employed by the city out of season?! That's shocking enough to me to hear.

Two points:

1. I am guessing but I would suspect the contract type might be an issue, do you do a per plow charge or a flat rate to look after the streets.
2. I know 2 fella's in Dead Rear that a plow drivers. When they are not needed to drive, summer or no snow, they work on other crews. When is snows the seconded to the snow plow brigade.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

So citizens get to chip in twice, once directly and once via increased premiums.

Sorry I dislike this idea.

I would be interested in knowing Montreal's snow removal policy. That place get's snow and lots of it. They are a comparable population wise.

http://ville.montreal.qc.ca/portal/p..._schema=PORTAL

Montreal's snow removal is "so much better" because they budget approximately 5 times as much as Calgary does to clear snow.

So the question is, would you pay $120 million extra each year to ensure weeks like last week don't happen? That's $100/person or an increase of 15% on property taxes assuming the province doesn't chip in. To put Montreal's $150 million into perspective Calgary collects $400 million from residential property taxes and $400 million from commercial property taxes. (link)

$120 million/year is an LRT leg every decade or 5 Peace bridges/year.

Is your 2 hours of extra commuting 4 days a year before the chinook rolls in really worth that much? There are a lot of better things to spend money on that would benefit the city before we waste a bunch of money on moving snow around.

I know there is a middle ground and this isn't directed at anyone in particular but I'm getting tired of hearing about how great Montreal's snow clearing is...

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I was a government worker once. The stories you hear about how slack it is are really true, and I wasn't even unionized.

"If you guys are going to nap just do it away from the public eye"-Real quote from Calgary road crew foreman.

Yeah, I'd rather see sub-contract work here. Or get id of the union.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by habernac

LOL. I have a Sentra and haven't moved it off the driveway since it snowed (we're at the top of a hill on a cul-de-sac that's never plowed).

It's tricky in this environment, especially when we get crazy weather like this past week where the temperature will swing 30 degrees and suddenly it goes from ice to deep slush in a matter of days.

Get off you wallet and jack that baby up

Spoiler!

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by habernac

LOL. I have a Sentra and haven't moved it off the driveway since it snowed (we're at the top of a hill on a cul-de-sac that's never plowed).

It's tricky in this environment, especially when we get crazy weather like this past week where the temperature will swing 30 degrees and suddenly it goes from ice to deep slush in a matter of days.

If you had a set of Blizzaks on your Corolla, there isn't a single street in all of Calgary that would have stopped your car this week or last.