How many brutal giveaways does Butler need to do..

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

SuperMatt, I think you overlooked an important part of these stats: icetime.

Wideman, Brodie and Russell all play more minutes than Butler, which make his goals against and giveaways that much worse when the amount of ice is factored in.

Butler: 23 GVA - 5 TKA 20:20 avg ice a game. 589 total minutes.
Brodie: 25 GVA- 16 TKA 23:50 avg ice a game. 691 total minutes.
Wideman: 21 GVA- 12 TKA 26:14 avg ice a game. 629 total minutes.
Russell: 19 GVA- 15 TKA 23:31 avg ice a game. 682 total minutes.

Agree, but a big Difference there is a lot of PP time. ES + PK it is pretty close.

Butler: 585 minutes
Brodie: 639 minutes
Wideman: 539 minutes
Russell: 596 minutes

So once again pretty close when comparing the hard minutes with only really Brodie standing out, and doing a great job still.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Bit of a reach when Butler is playing over 20 minutes. I could see that meaning more if he was a 15 minute or less d-man. Also wouldn't not playing on the PP be the big reason for the 3 minutes less he gets?

Should I break it down on 5 on 5 time for you? It doesn't make it look any better for Butler.

Should I pull out quality of competition that he plays against compaired to the other guys?

His -16 does not include special teams.

Bad defenseman is bad.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

What is alarming after looking at these stats is how bad Wideman has been for a $5 million dollar d-man. Moon is probably on to something when he talks about how bad Wideman is. The guy is sheltered as much as possible and still isn't doing a great job.

Russell has been good in his sheltered role though, and Brodie has been a machine is his shutdown role. Keeping his head way above water even though he has been put in really tough spots.

Great post. I think both you and Moon may be on to something with Wideman. I can't be the only person that has noticed that the team defense has been poor since he arrived last season (obviously not solely his fault) and since he's been injured the Flames have given up 5 goals (Ducks) then 1, 1, 3, 1 goal against. There has been no clip in the last two years where the team has kept the goals against this low. I realize one guy doesn't account for all of team defense but the team has played much tighter in his absence.

[Mister Yamoto]

The only two things about Wideman that suggest that he is an elite D are his shot and his salary. I'd love to see him gone and Kris Russell take over his role.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

If posters want to bring in +/- to make an arguement that's fine with me, but i would like to see some consistency to what posters think of players with bad +/-.

Yes Butler has a bad +/- and should be gone from the team, but whats with 90% of CP wanting Stempniak re-signed when he is bottom 6-7 in +/- ?

How many of Stempniak's minuses came with Chris Butler defending the ice?

Considering Butler has been on the ice for 42.3% of the goals against the Flames, I'd bet it's a lot of them.

[Stupid]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

If posters want to bring in +/- to make an arguement that's fine with me, but i would like to see some consistency to what posters think of players with bad +/-.

Yes Butler has a bad +/- and should be gone from the team, but whats with 90% of CP wanting Stempniak re-signed when he is bottom 6-7 in +/- ?

Stemps was second best on this team last year in +/-. One of only two with a positive score. He was at +2 while Stajan was at +7. Stajan is now a -7.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Great post. I think both you and Moon may be on to something with Wideman. I can't be the only person that has noticed that the team defense has been poor since he arrived last season (obviously not solely his fault) and since he's been injured the Flames have given up 5 goals (Ducks) then 1, 1, 3, 1 goal against. There has been no clip in the last two years where the team has kept the goals against this low. I realize one guy doesn't account for all of team defense but the team has played much tighter in his absence.

I had a strong feeling that Wideman going down wouldn't have much of a negative impact.

All the Flames have to do in his absence is maintain a .417 winning%, 24th best PP and 30th best GAA. So far so good.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Should I break it down on 5 on 5 time for you? It doesn't make it look any better for Butler.

Should I pull out quality of competition that he plays against compaired to the other guys?

His -16 does not include special teams.

Bad defenseman is bad.

Supermatty's post factors virtually all of these elements into account quite brilliantly, and has shown that Butler's poor +/- is much more a product of poor offence than bad defense (or, worse defense on a defensively poor team). His offensive starts are low, and he plays in more low goal-yield situations. In short, he doesn't score, in large part because he doesn't possess much in the way of offensive instinct or skill, and exacerbated by the fact that he tends to play more often with other players who also have very limited offensive abilities. His play in his own zone statistically appears fairly average in comparison to his peers

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Supermatty's post factors virtually all of these elements into account quite brilliantly, and has shown that Butler's poor +/- is much more a product of poor offence than bad defense (or, worse defense on a defensively poor team). His offensive starts are low, and he plays in more low goal-yield situations. In short, he doesn't score, in large part because he doesn't possess much in the way of offensive instinct or skill, and exacerbated by the fact that he tends to play more often with other players who also have very limited offensive abilities. His play in his own zone statistically appears fairly average in comparison to his peers

So let me get this straight.

Butler is a good defensive defenseman that is bad on offense?

How does that explain the 41 goals (or 42% of all goals scored against the Flames this year) that have gone into the net while he is on the ice?

[SuperMatt18]

As an addition to my previous post Butler is also the most effective PKer of the group that was listed above.

Relative Corsi (4 vs. 5-Compares a players on-ice corsi to his off ice corsi)

Butler: 8.0
Brodie: 3.5
Russell: -0.5
Wideman: -28.2

Corsi On (4 vs.5)

Butler: -72.75
Brodie: -74.37
Russell: 76.76
Wideman: -92.90

So compared to his defensive counterparts Butler is better at preventing shots on the PP. May be another reason our coaching staff likes Butler, and probably a reason why he was on the ice in the final minute.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

So let me get this straight.

Butler is a good defensive defenseman that is bad on offence?

Wrong. Butler is an average bottom-pairing defenseman on a bad defensive team (I certainly would nor characterise that as "good").

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

How does that explain the 41 goals (or 42% of all goals scored against the Flames this year) that have gone into the net while he is on the ice?

Like this:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Butler also leads the team in Short Handed time on ice, which doesn't help his GA.

Compared to other DMen on the team (who have played 20+ games).

Butler: 31 GA ES - 10 GA PK
Brodie: 28 GA ES - 8 GA PK
Wideman: 33 GA ES - 8 GA PK
Russell: 27 GA ES - 2 GA PK
SOB: 10 GA ES - 0 GA PK

You very conveniently neglected to mention that Brodie (37%) and Wideman (42%) are within the same range as Butler when factoring in their ratio of total goals against. Way to cherry-pick, there.

Again, Butler's problem is average defense combined with poor offence, and the poor offence is in part a product of circumstances which do NOT favour production.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

As an addition to my previous post Butler is also the most effective PKer of the group that was listed above.

Relative Corsi (4 vs. 5-Compares a players on-ice corsi to his off ice corsi)

Butler: 8.0
Brodie: 3.5
Russell: -0.5
Wideman: -28.2

Corsi On (4 vs.5)

Butler: -72.75
Brodie: -74.37
Russell: 76.76
Wideman: -92.90

So compared to his defensive counterparts Butler is better at preventing shots on the PP. May be another reason our coaching staff likes Butler, and probably a reason why he was on the ice in the final minute.

And here is even strength.

Relative Corsi (5 vs 5)

Russel: 9.4
Brodie: 9.3
Wideman: 4.2
Butler: -12.2

Corsi On (5 vs 5)

Russel: -5.56
Brodie: -5.61
Wideman: -6.71
Butler: -19.26

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

And here is even strength.

Relative Corsi (5 vs 5)

Russel: 9.4
Brodie: 9.3
Wideman: 4.2
Butler: -12.2

Corsi On (5 vs 5)

Russel: -5.56
Brodie: -5.61
Wideman: -6.71
Butler: -19.26

Did you even read my post on the previous page?

Thank you for showing me the same stats I already posted. As I mentioned the biggest issue with Butler is not defensively, it is that the Flames generate virtually no offense when he is on the ice. That also ends up showing up in Corsi On.

It is why he is only on the ice for a couple more ES goals then Brodie or Wideman, while having a lower on-ice Save Percentage. The stats show that he is no worse in his own end then our other d-men and that he is average defensively, the issue comes back to how little offense gets generated with him on the ice.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

The only two things about Wideman that suggest that he is an elite D are his shot and his salary. I'd love to see him gone and Kris Russell take over his role.

I think Wideman sits pretty comfortably in this group of comparables, right now at least. There are a few that I'd much rather have, and there are a few that I'd much rather have Wideman over.

http://capgeek.com/comparables/?play...7&year_id=2013

I'm not a huge fan of his salary, but he's not paid as an elite D-man.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

How does that explain the 41 goals (or 42% of all goals scored against the Flames this year) that have gone into the net while he is on the ice?

He is on the 33% of all ice time, and 54% of all shorthanded ice time. While getting 40% offensive zone starts. So that probably has something to do with it.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Did you even read my post on the previous page?

Thank you for showing me the same stats I already posted. As I mentioned the biggest issue with Butler is not defensively, it is that the Flames generate virtually no offense when he is on the ice. That also ends up showing up in Corsi On.

It is why he is only on the ice for a couple more ES goals then Brodie or Wideman, while having a lower on-ice Save Percentage. The stats show that he is no worse in his own end then our other d-men and that he is average defensively, the issue comes back to how little offense gets generated with him on the ice.

But that is part of the game and can't simply be dismissed just because he is a defenseman.

There are two potential reasons:

1) coincidence, random luck. It is possible that the others players simply don't perform as well when he is on the ice (but very unlikely)

2) he is impacting the other players. And that's the thing. Butler simply can't get the puck up to his forwards. He backs up too much and gives away too much ice, allowing the other team to attack easier. He doesn't separate anyone from the puck physically. He can't skate the puck out of the zone. And his first pass up to the forwards is horrific. The result: the team doesn't generate as much offense when he is on the ice.

To the best of my knowledge, the idea is to outscore the other team. And if he gives up as many goals as other players, but results in fewer goals for, well you can do the math.

[Phanuthier]

Great posts from both sides...... I'm a self proclaimed hater, but I have to say Butler probably is a lot better then I give him credit for. Unfortunately his role is to not keep his game steady, so the only time you notice him, he sucks. Meanwhile, the guy he was replacing was a rock on the blueline for a decade..... a guy promised (or at least we had hoped) would pay dividends for years to come as Regehr declined. Meanwhile, Regehr ended up being traded for great value 3 years later and is still providing steady defense, while Butler is doing the job 95% of the time when he's expected to be doing the job 99.99% of the time.

Nature of the job.....

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

So let me get this straight.

Butler is a good defensive defenseman that is bad on offense?

How does that explain the 41 goals (or 42% of all goals scored against the Flames this year) that have gone into the net while he is on the ice?

No he is probably below average - average just like 70% of the players on the team. I wouldn't care about all the Butler bashing as long as half the team was getting bashed in the same way. Not sure how its fair to bash him so much when there are players on this team as bad or worse than him.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Flames have 97 GA.

Butler has been on the ice for 42.3% of them.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[CSharp]

The way I see it, Butler's performance on this team is warranted. The worse he is and the worse the team is, the better the future looks for the Flames. He's doing a perfect job if he keeps giving the puck away in his defensive zone. The team needs to be at the bottom for the next two year to get some really good picks. Think rebuilding...you don't get anywhere if you don't hit rock bottom!