How many brutal giveaways does Butler need to do..

[strombad]

[Hockeyboy2]

Originally Posted by flambers

In my view Its the Regher trade, fans expected a top 2 dman to replace Regher.

Expectations were too high.

However he is much better than many folks are saying. Obviosuly the Coaches like him.

Although you make a valid point and I do agree with you consider this:

Regardless of who we traded to get Chris Butler the fact remains that he appears to be a bad hockey player to fans who is impressing coaches enough to be playing him top 2-4 Defensemen minutes some nights on this hockey team. The coaching staff wouldnt give him that much ice time just because he was traded for a former fan favourte.

Somewhere along the line there is a huge gap between the on ice product that is Chris Butler to fans vs what he looks like to the coaching staff.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by flambers

In my view Its the Regher trade, fans expected a top 2 dman to replace Regher.

Expectations were too high.

However he is much better than many folks are saying. Obviosuly the Coaches like him.

Can't speak for everyone, but as someone who's been very critical of Butler, that has nothing, at all, to do with it. Reggie was trending downwards and we weren't getting much for him anyways, anyone thinking we could/should have is dreaming.

[Erick Estrada]

This focus on our 5th defenseman by some of you fans is borderline unhealthy.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This focus on our 5th defenseman by some of you fans is borderline unhealthy.

The thing is even if he is a "5th defenseman" as you put it, he still plays minutes and is scored on in those minutes he plays making it a problem.

You have shifts where the opposition can't get anything going, then Butler jumps over the boards, gives the puck away and we get scored on.

This is a problem. Been a problem for 3 years.

Sad thing is I honestly think he is playing the best hockey of his Flames career, yet he still constantly gives the puck away and it ends up in our net erasing all the good/solid things he did during the game.

I also believe Chris Butler is very fragile, his confidence gets sapped away easily. He does not help his cause with these brutal giveaways. Hard to play with confidence when he continually has brain farts that find their way gift wrapped onto the opponents stick.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

The thing is even if he is a "5th defenseman" as you put it, he still plays minutes and is scored on in those minutes he plays making it a problem.

You have shifts where the opposition can't get anything going, then Butler jumps over the boards, gives the puck away and we get scored on.

This is a problem. Been a problem for 3 years.

Sad thing is I honestly think he is playing the best hockey of his Flames career, yet he still constantly gives the puck away and it ends up in our net erasing all the good/solid things he did during the game.

I also believe Chris Butler is very fragile, his confidence gets sapped away easily. He does not help his cause with these brutal giveaways. Hard to play with confidence when he continually has brain farts that find their way gift wrapped onto the opponents stick.

You make it sound like Brent and Bob willingly ice a guy that costs the Flames a goal against the moment he steps on the ice. We all know that's not the truth as a lot of you are magnifying a few miscues he made that actually resulted in goals. I see the game day threads when Butler's partner leaves his man open for a goal and fans see 44 on the ice and automatically blame Butler despite the fact it wasn't his fault. It's snowballed and taken a life of it's own to the point where Butler get's blamed for any and every goal scored on whether it was his fault or not. He's an easy scapegoat for guys that never liked him the day the Regehr trade was made which has manifested itself on casual fans that have been told over and over he's terrible so they think he's terrible despite two different NHL head coaches not sharing that opinion.

Like I said before Butler is the perfect lightning rod distracting fans from the real issues. The Flames are letting in more goals than any other team in the league and only a small portion of those goals go in when Butler is on the ice. The goaltending at times has been below average and defensive play at times has been horrendous by all defensive pairings.

[Bourque's Twin]

CP is going to go absolutely insane when Feaster re-signs Butler.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This focus on our 5th defenseman by some of you fans is borderline unhealthy.

Tends to happen when he gets tossed on the first pairing.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Like I said before Butler is the perfect lightning rod distracting fans from the real issues. The Flames are letting in more goals than any other team in the league and only a small portion of those goals go in when Butler is on the ice. The goaltending at times has been below average and defensive play at times has been horrendous by all defensive pairings.

Couple facts about Chris Butler: He has been on the ice for more goals against than any other Flame 5 on 5.

He has allowed more goals than any other Flame (minus Smid, who was not on the Flames) than any other player on the PK.

Of the Flames regulars, only Giordano (sample size) and Smid (Edmonton) are less effective offensively 5on5 (GF/60) than Chris Butler.

So, saying he is only on the ice for a 'small percentage' of the Flames goals is somewhat misleading, especially because he plays against worse competition than other Flames defenders.

He really is that bad.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

He played some decent hockey when Gio first went down, but he has had some really terrible turnovers this year. Wouldn't hurt my feelings if he moved along.

I do agree with EE though....I've read some of the game threads where Butler instantly gets blamed for a goal against, then I'll see the replay later and realize one of his teammates was more to blame than Butler was, but not so much of a peep about it. Unfortunately I don't think much will change until he leaves town.

Too bad, because the game threads are so tough to read lately when seemingly every third post or so is saying how bad he sucks. It's gotten out of hand.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

He played some decent hockey when Gio first went down, but he has had some really terrible turnovers this year. Wouldn't hurt my feelings if he moved along.

I do agree with EE though....I've read some of the game threads where Butler instantly gets blamed for a goal against, then I'll see the replay later and realize one of his teammates was more to blame than Butler was, but not so much of a peep about it. Unfortunately I don't think much will change until he leaves town.

Too bad, because the game threads are so tough to read lately when seemingly every third post or so is saying how bad he sucks. It's gotten out of hand.

In some ways it is just too easy. When Butler fails on a play, it is in the realm of a Michael Bay movie. He just can't do it quietly or like a normal person, it has to be big and flashy.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Like I said before Butler is the perfect lightning rod distracting fans from the real issues. The Flames are letting in more goals than any other team in the league and only a small portion of those goals go in when Butler is on the ice. The goaltending at times has been below average and defensive play at times has been horrendous by all defensive pairings.

41 goals have been scored against the Flames with Butler on the ice.

15 goals have been scored by the Flames with Butler on the ice.

His -16 is second worst in the league behind Nail Yakupov's -17.

He has 23 giveaways and 5 takeaways.

Only a small portion of goals go in when Butler is on the ice?

97 total goals have gone into the Flames net. 41 of them have happened with Butler on the ice.

The actual stats disagree with your assessment.

[killer_carlson]

Perhaps if Butler started holding the blueline more against an oncoming rush his stats would change...

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You make it sound like Brent and Bob willingly ice a guy that costs the Flames a goal against the moment he steps on the ice. We all know that's not the truth as a lot of you are magnifying a few miscues he made that actually resulted in goals. I see the game day threads when Butler's partner leaves his man open for a goal and fans see 44 on the ice and automatically blame Butler despite the fact it wasn't his fault. It's snowballed and taken a life of it's own to the point where Butler get's blamed for any and every goal scored on whether it was his fault or not. He's an easy scapegoat for guys that never liked him the day the Regehr trade was made which has manifested itself on casual fans that have been told over and over he's terrible so they think he's terrible despite two different NHL head coaches not sharing that opinion.

Like I said before Butler is the perfect lightning rod distracting fans from the real issues. The Flames are letting in more goals than any other team in the league and only a small portion of those goals go in when Butler is on the ice. The goaltending at times has been below average and defensive play at times has been horrendous by all defensive pairings.

Lol try checking your facts before you go on a rant.

FACT: Butler has the worst +/- of any defencemen in the league.

so your "is only on for a small portion of goals" is complete garbage.

And the Regehr trade has nothing to do with fans thinking he was garbage as much as your imagination thinks so. You're pretty funny, first it was Iginla who was responsible for our crappy defence and country club atmosphere and the coach couldn't control his team because of Iginla but now it's the coach, right? Who's the next problem in the world of EE? Feaster?, King? Harvey the hound?

[CaramonLS]

Flames have 97 GA.

Butler has been on the ice for 42.3% of them.

[SuperMatt18]

Butler also leads the team in Short Handed time on ice, which doesn't help his GA.

Compared to other DMen on the team (who have played 20+ games).

Butler: 31 GA ES - 10 GA PK
Brodie: 28 GA ES - 8 GA PK
Wideman: 33 GA ES - 8 GA PK
Russell: 27 GA ES - 2 GA PK
SOB: 10 GA ES - 0 GA PK

Those numbers align pretty closely to the Butler-Wideman, Brodie-Russell pairings that we saw while Gio was injured. With the main difference being PP GA which favours the other d-man since Butler has played 15 more minutes SH then the next closest Flame.

Also if we want to use GVA VS TKA

Butler: 23 GVA - 5 TKA
Brodie: 25 GVA- 16 TKA
Wideman: 21 GVA- 12 TKA
Russell: 19 GVA- 15 TKA

So clearly giveaways are not the issue all of our d-man have relatively the same amount of giveaways, but actually the fact that he is really bad at takeaways (support for those that bash him for constantly backing in at his own blueline).

He is a decent shot blocker:

Butler: 76 Blks
Russell: 85 Blks
Brodie: 50 Blks
Wideman: 49 Blks

Then when you look at the stats deeper its shows how sheltered Russell and Wideman have been, and how it has been Brodie and Butler that played the hard minutes when Gio was hurt.

Offensive Zone Start % / Finish %

Butler: 40.1% / 47% (5th Lowest Offensive Zone Start % in the League)
Brodie: 36.4% / 49% (Lowest Offensive Zone Start % in the League)
Wideman: 61.6% / 51%
Russell: 56.2% / 52.6%

The biggest thing with Butler is that when he is on the ice it is a black hole offensively. Poor Corsi overall, poor shooting percentage, and that is what truly causes the poor +/-.


Corsi On (On Ice Shot Differential)

Russell: -5.56
Brodie: -5.61 (Kind of amazing he is so close to Russell with the zone start difference)
Wideman: -6.70
Butler: -19.26

Also some bad luck for Butler has he has the lowest on ice shooting percentage, and low save percentage.

On Ice Shooting %

Russell: 10.66%
Wideman: 9.41%
Brodie: 7.89%
Butler: 6.64%

On Ice Save %
Russell: .909
Brodie: .895
Butler: .883
Wideman: .878

So in all is Butler a good defenseman, no he is not. Is he as bad as CP makes him seem? No, he is what he is a decent 5/6 d-man that this team has counted on in a top 4 role the past 3 years and the role is above his head.

What is alarming after looking at these stats is how bad Wideman has been for a $5 million dollar d-man. Moon is probably on to something when he talks about how bad Wideman is. The guy is sheltered as much as possible and still isn't doing a great job.

Russell has been good in his sheltered role though, and Brodie has been a machine is his shutdown role. Keeping his head way above water even though he has been put in really tough spots.

[Francis's Hairpiece]

^^ fine post.

I missed the stats on Butlers giveaways directly leading to goals against. Either by falling down after being checked or by ill-advised passes.

I for one am not expecting miracles from anyone on the roster. But I am almost enraged by soft play and inexcusable giveaways, and Butler is usually the one that delivers those, over and over.

Remember when Brodie had that insanely bad game? Bunch of turnovers and mistakes that really cost us? He has improved, and I can live with that. Butler can't seem to do that, and that drives me nuts. He doesn't improve.

[CsInMyBlood]

SuperMatt, I think you overlooked an important part of these stats: icetime.

Wideman, Brodie and Russell all play more minutes than Butler, which make his goals against and giveaways that much worse when the amount of ice is factored in.

Butler: 23 GVA - 5 TKA 20:20 avg ice a game. 589 total minutes.
Brodie: 25 GVA- 16 TKA 23:50 avg ice a game. 691 total minutes.
Wideman: 21 GVA- 12 TKA 26:14 avg ice a game. 629 total minutes.
Russell: 19 GVA- 15 TKA 23:31 avg ice a game. 682 total minutes.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

SuperMatt, I think you overlooked an important part of these stats: icetime.

Wideman, Brodie and Russell all play more minutes than Butler, which make his goals against and giveaways that much worse when the amount of ice is factored in.

Butler: 23 GVA - 5 TKA 20:20 avg ice a game. 589 total minutes.
Brodie: 25 GVA- 16 TKA 23:50 avg ice a game. 691 total minutes.
Wideman: 21 GVA- 12 TKA 26:14 avg ice a game. 629 total minutes.
Russell: 19 GVA- 15 TKA 23:31 avg ice a game. 682 total minutes.

Bit of a reach when Butler is playing over 20 minutes. I could see that meaning more if he was a 15 minute or less d-man. Also wouldn't not playing on the PP be the big reason for the 3 minutes less he gets?

[kyuss275]

If posters want to bring in +/- to make an arguement that's fine with me, but i would like to see some consistency to what posters think of players with bad +/-.

Yes Butler has a bad +/- and should be gone from the team, but whats with 90% of CP wanting Stempniak re-signed when he is bottom 6-7 in +/- ?