How many brutal giveaways does Butler need to do..

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by stamps

I agree.... singling out Butler is kinda annoying ..... this team is a work in progress , and that includes Chris Butler ....

Haha. Work in progress. Where the hell is the progress? What's annoying is people defying logic in order to try and be a voice of reason.

No one is saying Butler is the only player making mistakes. He just makes the most, the wrist and at the most crucial times

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by FBI

Before he is held the least bit accountable?

Unbelievable what our management sees in this useless player. Watching other guys get benched for much smaller mistakes while Butler gets a free pass drives me crazy.

Haven't read through the thread, but I'm guessing the reason he gets leeway from management is because management is aware how brutal our D is and understand that Butler has consistently been played well above his level basically since he's been here. He's a 5/6 damn that is consistently getting top pairing minutes.

[bluloc]

Butler needs to be off this team. Just looking at him makes me mad. He has face Id like to smash.

[dustygoon]

If he was put on waivers, I don't think he would pass. He is probably tradeable for something. Surprised we haven't seen that happen. Having added Smid, it should make it possible to bring up Cundari (is he playing again?).

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

If he was put on waivers, I don't think he would pass. He is probably tradeable for something. Surprised we haven't seen that happen. Having added Smid, it should make it possible to bring up Cundari (is he playing again?).

You'd rather have Cundari playing instead of Butler? I'd love to see how Cundari would do playing top pairing minutes with Gio.................it be laughable. 14x the train wreck Butler is on the top pairing.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

You'd rather have Cundari playing instead of Butler? I'd love to see how Cundari would do playing top pairing minutes with Gio.................it be laughable. 14x the train wreck Butler is on the top pairing.

In Cundari's first game last year he played 25 minutes, and had a goal and an assist to show for it. Small sample size obviously, but he accomplished a hell of a lot more in that one game than Butler has in any game in his two and a half years here, while getting similar minutes.

Butler is garbage. Flat out.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

In Cundari's first game last year he played 25 minutes, and had a goal and an assist to show for it. Small sample size obviously, but he accomplished a hell of a lot more in that one game than Butler has in any game in his two and a half years here, while getting similar minutes.

Butler is garbage. Flat out.

Cundari can't make the NHL roster of the Flames and their weak ass D. I don't care that Cundari scored a goal in a meaningless game, he is not yet ready to play in the NHL, let alone play top pairing minutes anywhere close to the level that Butler does.

I'm no butler fan, but it amazes me how Flames fan fail to see how this team continuously plays this guy out of position (due to need) and sets him up for failure.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

You'd rather have Cundari playing instead of Butler? I'd love to see how Cundari would do playing top pairing minutes with Gio.................it be laughable. 14x the train wreck Butler is on the top pairing.

Why would Cundari (or whoever) have to play 1st pairing minutes? Even with Wideman out we have Gio, Smid, Brodie and Russell, all of whom can easily play (and have played) top four minutes? Just because Hartley, for some inane reason, continues to give Butler top minutes and play him in important situations does not mean if he were gone whoever filled his roster spot would have to play the same role/minutes.

And as far as being better then SOB goes (as some posters have mentioned here and in other threads), yeah he might be, but certainly not by much. Thing is, we're a fairly soft team and SOB, for all his faults, is willing to play physical, is willing to stand up for his teammates and is willing to drop the mitts, if needed. Butler isn't willing or (probably) able to do any of those things and we don't really have many others in the system that can either. So SOB fills a role here, Chris Butler certainly does not.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

You'd rather have Cundari playing instead of Butler? I'd love to see how Cundari would do playing top pairing minutes with Gio.................it be laughable. 14x the train wreck Butler is on the top pairing.

What's laughable is that Hartley keeps trying to slot Butler onto the top pairing.

Trading Butler and bringing up Cundari (not my choice btw) would force Hartley into more sensible decisions like using either Brodie or Smid with Giordano.

No one is saying to give Cundari the same role Butler has been given, just utilize the other 5 better and slot Cundari (or whoever) into the #6 role.

[Mr.Coffee]

SOB is better than Butler for that reason exactly, he is a physical presence. If Butler made the mistakes he does but at least smashed people or hit somebody I would agree he is better than SOB. Instead he is soft. Cundari is comparable easily to Butler in that he would be a 5/6 pairing guy here.

People say Cundari isn't good enough to make the team but neither is Butler and at least Cundari has upside that he could grow into a solid defenseman.

I don't agree with the notion that development can only occur at the AHL level. This exclusive train of thought is why Calgary blows at developing prospects, they never give them a legitimate chance and then if they do, only because they are a top drawer prospect alone, they play double standards games with the vets.

Could you imagine if a guy like Baertschi made the mistakes Butler does? Baerstchi would be shipped back to Switzerland.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Cundari can't make the NHL roster of the Flames and their weak ass D. I don't care that Cundari scored a goal in a meaningless game, he is not yet ready to play in the NHL, let alone play top pairing minutes anywhere close to the level that Butler does.

I'm no butler fan, but it amazes me how Flames fan fail to see how this team continuously plays this guy out of position (due to need) and sets him up for failure.

You start off saying that Cundari can't play top pairing minutes the way Butler does, and then continue that thought by saying that Butler is being set up to fail by being given top pairing minutes. So I'm not actually sure what your point is. They're both fringe NHL defensemen who would be playing way over their heads on a sucky team.

But at least Cundari has already shown that he can contribute something when given those minutes. Butler's biggest accomplishment as a top 4 dman for the Flames is a historically terrible showing against the Bruins.

[Mr.Coffee]

If they insist on playing Butler, like they do, for the love of God the least they could do is spend every damn minute of available practice time with him just standing in the corner practising rifling pucks off the glass and out of the zone.

If that's all he did better he would improve like 10x over.

[The Original FFIV]

Forget Cundari, Billins could step into Butlers spot and do as well if not better.

Guy needs to go, both for his and the team's sake.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Why would Cundari (or whoever) have to play 1st pairing minutes? Even with Wideman out we have Gio, Smid, Brodie and Russell, all of whom can easily play (and have played) top four minutes? Just because Hartley, for some inane reason, continues to give Butler top minutes and play him in important situations does not mean if he were gone whoever filled his roster spot would have to play the same role/minutes.

And as far as being better then SOB goes (as some posters have mentioned here and in other threads), yeah he might be, but certainly not by much. Thing is, we're a fairly soft team and SOB, for all his faults, is willing to play physical, is willing to stand up for his teammates and is willing to drop the mitts, if needed. Butler isn't willing or (probably) able to do any of those things and we don't really have many others in the system that can either. So SOB fills a role here, Chris Butler certainly does not.

Your point is a different one, and not the one that most on this board make when complaining about Butler. Fair if you want to critique Hartley for where he chooses to use Butler, but that's not Butler's fault. And then suggesting that Cundari getting a call up to replace Butler and being a better option than Butler because the Flames won't put him in the same situation as Butler is not a fair comparison and proves nothing about Butler being garbage or being worse or better than Cundari. All that does is speak to the coaches decision on how to use Butler. Your argument about Russel and Brodie (Wideman is hurt) can be used just as easily with Butler and it can with Cundari.

What I think people are missing, is that the coaches are sheilding Brodie and Russels assignments much more than Butlers, which makes all of us feel like Brodie and Russel are better options than Butler. Now I'm not saying they might not be, and the coaches aren't making a mistake with how they use Butler, I'd like to see them try others in the same spot. But until we see Brodie or Russel get the same assignments Butler does, we don't know how they'd do.

And to that point, I actually think Brodie makes way more mistakes and costly errors than Butler, but Flames fans forgive them much easier because Brodie is flashier and he's homegrown and this fan base clamours to say we have "prospects" succeeding. Russel has not been as error prone, but has yet to be "thrown to the wolves" the way Butler has, it's something though I wish the staff would try at least for a bit and push Butler down the line up a bit.

[Mr.Coffee]

I totally agree Brodie makes mistakes for sure. But the difference is he does something out there. He's a net positive to the team with the plays he makes and stability on the line despite his mistakes.

Butler doesn't add that. Like I said if he turned slight meathead, that's a tangible plus, something the team could use. But when you don't do anything, just make mistakes, this is the response from the fanbase.

[868904]

Can't say i'm a fan of Butler, but this is now two head coaches who play him as a top 4 defenceman (Brent and now Bob).

Also, if i'm not mistaken, he's been selected to represent team USA at two consecutive World Championships. I know, not really great depth in USA hockey, but there seems to be at least another organization that sees some value for him.

Maybe we are all missing something?

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

You'd rather have Cundari playing instead of Butler? I'd love to see how Cundari would do playing top pairing minutes with Gio.................it be laughable. 14x the train wreck Butler is on the top pairing.

Ya....that is what i said. Ad-lib much? Take a look at some time on ice. Point is Smid could play more minutes.....ie play Butler's minutes and more. Butler averages around 5 more minutes per game than Smid over last three games. You can move out butler, bump up Smid's minutes and bring up a young guy (i don't care who) and manage those rookie minutes without overwhelming him.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

...Just because Hartley, for some inane reason, continues to give Butler top minutes and play him in important situations does not mean if he were gone whoever filled his roster spot would have to play the same role/minutes...

I suspect that Hartley has Butler out on the ice in the final minutes of games protecting a lead because he is pretty damn good at blocking shots. For a team whose success this season absolutely depends on their ability to block shots, this seems pretty important to me.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I totally agree Brodie makes mistakes for sure. But the difference is he does something out there. He's a net positive to the team with the plays he makes and stability on the line despite his mistakes.

Butler doesn't add that. Like I said if he turned slight meathead, that's a tangible plus, something the team could use. But when you don't do anything, just make mistakes, this is the response from the fanbase.

Agreed with the comment on the other intangibles Brodie brings that make his errors more palatable.

Point remains though, as far as we know right now, Butler makes mistakes because since being here, he has been consistently played miles above his level. Partnered with Bouw, Gio, etc.... He's not ready or capable of playing against the other teams best players. Before he get's sent to the minors in replacement for someone like Cundari, probably only makes sense to see if he makes the same errors when he's on the 3rd pairing, where he belongs. Because as you point out, if we did just call up Cundari to replace him, that's where Cundari would play, and someone else would have to step up into Butler's role. Unless they are getting a trade of value for him, I'd like to see the Flames swap Russel and Butler's roles and see what happens.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

Ya....that is what i said. Ad-lib much? Take a look at some time on ice. Point is Smid could play more minutes.....ie play Butler's minutes and more. Butler averages around 5 more minutes per game than Smid over last three games. You can move out butler, bump up Smid's minutes and bring up a young guy (i don't care who) and manage those rookie minutes without overwhelming him.

Right, so why not just do what you suggest and move Butler down the roster. You can do everything you suggest, with Butler in the line up, you don't need to move him out to do it. What you are describing is a coaching issue, not a player issue, which is the point.