Flames Exploring Trade Options

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Heh, +/-. That's the second most useless stat tracked by the NHL.

Colborne get's better linemates then Backlund does (when neither are out with the 4th line), Colborne get's started in the offense zone more then backlund does, and Colborne pretty much exclusively gets powerplay time for special team minutes while Backlund moreso get's penalty killing duty.

Frankly, I wonder why Colborne has only identical numbers to Backlund when he's given such an easier ride. He's the one that should be producing more.



... Why couldn't we just convert one to wing? Personally I think Colborne would be better as a winger anyways.

I suppose that could work. But I feel like we have too many LH wingers as it is. I wouldnt be oppossed to the idea cause I still like Backlund and would rather keep him..

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Parallex

But Zone Start is noted to provide context to performance not as a indicative... you were using +/- as an indicative.



And what the differential in terms of PK time? The context here is that Backlund has to spend a significant part of his minutes down a man. Colberne does not.


That's actually an indictment of Colborne... it's not like he's 20 years old he's just 9 months younger then Backlund. The reason he only played 16 games is because he wasn't good enough to play in the NHL.

Colborne at nearly an identical age but playing as a rookie is as productive as Backlund in his 4th full-time professional season. Playing in the NHL is the ultimate way to develop NHL level talent, so why isn't Backlund that much better despite having been in the league for 3 seasons longer?

As well, let's take PK time out shall we? I think we can both agree producing offensively on the PK isn't likely.

Backlund has played 20 minutes more ES than Colborne, 4 minutes less on the PP.

So while Backlund spends more time on the PK, he also spends more time on ES, and a small time less on the PP. Colborne also has a point on the PP, pretty insignificant, but noteworthy when Backlund has zero.

We can go back and forth on it all day, but the thing is, Backlund is expected to produce at a higher rate than every single one of our current centers. Instead, he's getting out-produced by two rookies and a 3rd liner on any competitive team. It's not good enough. He didn't start as the 4th line center, he's there because he has shown he isn't any better than that on this time. Time to move on or improve immediately.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

I agree Stajan played alright in his first half-season here. 'Alright' enough to earn a fairly good contract. It could be a coincidence, but he's only started to play 'alright' again recently, which again happens to be when his contract is up.

2.5 years or 4 years; he has been dead weight for a substantial amount of his time here. He has 9 points and is -7 in 15 games this season, playing on the 1st line and averaging 19 minutes a night.

With Backlund you can never question his work ethic or drive to succeed, but he doesn't get the stats that are expected from him (yet). That being said, he has 7 points and is -6 in 22 games, mostly on the 4th line averaging 14.5 minutes a night. He is 5 years younger and has a cap hit less than half of what Stajan's is.

Why should the bar be set so low for the ageing veteran but the emerging young pro is in the dog house despite working his arse off? They're putting up similar numbers in my opinion, with Backlund's numbers diluted by spending the last month on a line with Big Ern, Tim Jackman or, if he's lucky, T.J. Galiardi.

If Backlund is traded for something insubstantial and Stajan is re-signed then this organisation is as farcical as it has ever been.

There was nothing wrong with Stajan last season either. He was terrible those 2 seasons with Sutter but has been playing his best hockey with Hartley. Does it make up for the years he sucked? Eh, maybe not. But I don't think he's playing well because it's a contract year, I never felt like Stajan was lazy in that regard.

And he's playing better than Backlund, why shouldn't he be getting the time? Isn't that what the fans wanted when the Flames were preaching meritocracy? I don't see the big deal.

Also, when does Backlund start getting criticized as simply an NHL player and not as a "young" pro? He's 24, far from old, but that's the same age Butler was when he came to the Flames. Force feeding Butler unwarranted ice-time never did him any favours and at least he wasn't taking it from deserving players. And despite defenseman usually maturing later Butler never broke out. Boyd was out of the NHL shortly after his 24th birthday.

There's enough examples of struggling 24 year olds who go onto become solid or better NHL players that it wont say it can't happen. But at one point you got what you got. I wouldn't be so cynical if Backlund was playing good defense this year, but he's been making mistake after mistake (hence the 4th line, healthy scratch and being benched). If he was just a random 24 year old coming over from KHL playing this way he would be a goat, but based on expectations and the occasional good game or stretch we've seen in the past, we still got hope.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by strombad

Instead, he's getting out-produced by two rookies and a 3rd liner on any competitive team.

But he's not being out produced by Colborne... they have the same number of points despite the fact that Colborne never has to kill penalties, gets easier assignments, and better linemates (when neither is being stuck with the facepunchers at any rate). Colborne may technically be a "rookie" but he had 227 professional games prior to this season if my quick count is correct. That few of them were in the NHL is no reason to give him some kind of credit.

If Colborne was unquestionably better I'd have zero issue with moving him but he's just not. Not by standard stats, advanced stats, or just the eye test.

Frankly, I don't think it even has to be an either/or situation. Just convert one to RW. We lack depth there anyways.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

There was nothing wrong with Stajan last season either. He was terrible those 2 seasons with Sutter but has been playing his best hockey with Hartley. Does it make up for the years he sucked? Eh, maybe not. But I don't think he's playing well because it's a contract year, I never felt like Stajan was lazy in that regard.

And he's playing better than Backlund, why shouldn't he be getting the time? Isn't that what the fans wanted when the Flames were preaching meritocracy? I don't see the big deal.

Also, when does Backlund start getting criticized as simply an NHL player and not as a "young" pro? He's 24, far from old, but that's the same age Butler was when he came to the Flames. Force feeding Butler unwarranted ice-time never did him any favours and at least he wasn't taking it from deserving players. And despite defenseman usually maturing later Butler never broke out. Boyd was out of the NHL shortly after his 24th birthday.

There's enough examples of struggling 24 year olds who go onto become solid or better NHL players that it wont say it can't happen. But at one point you got what you got. I wouldn't be so cynical if Backlund was playing good defense this year, but he's been making mistake after mistake (hence the 4th line, healthy scratch and being benched). If he was just a random 24 year old coming over from KHL playing this way he would be a goat, but based on expectations and the occasional good game or stretch we've seen in the past, we still got hope.

In my point I meant that Backlund is a young pro, as opposed to Stajan who is 5 years older. I didn't mean to classify him as a 'young pro', because he's maturing into a good NHLer and I've been happy with his style of play this season (despite the fact he's not putting up the numbers). I think the answer to your question (when does he start getting criticised as a regular NHLer) is pretty obvious. The guy is currently being made accountable for his perceived poor play by being scratched, demoted to the 4th line and put on the trading block.

Backs has been getting lampooned on here for making mistakes, but they've been rare. Or at least as rare as his fellow centres. He has 8 giveaways this season (compared to Stajan's 12, Monahan's 11 and Colborne's 9 giveaways). He plays a fast up-tempo game. Hartley trusts him with PK time. The Flames usually play better when he's on the ice. It's no surprise to me that our modestly good start to the year occurred while Backlund was playing in the top 6 and Stajan was injured.

And before we get ahead of ourselves, let's remember the most recent Flames game where Stajan was vintage terrible Stajan, and Backlund had his best game in recent memory.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

In my point I meant that Backlund is a young pro, as opposed to Stajan who is 5 years older. I didn't mean to classify him as a 'young pro', because he's maturing into a good NHLer and I've been happy with his style of play this season (despite the fact he's not putting up the numbers). I think the answer to your question (when does he start getting criticised as a regular NHLer) is pretty obvious. The guy is currently being made accountable for his perceived poor play by being scratched, demoted to the 4th line and put on the trading block.

Yes, but that 29 year old is better than that 24 year old. Obviously Hartley is holding Backlund accountable, but when it comes to those defending Backlund and blasting Hartley it's always about how Backlund is younger than Stajan. So? At one point his play needs to determine his merit, not his age or potential or development.

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Backs has been getting lampooned on here for making mistakes, but they've been rare.

No they aren't. He's been making more mistakes with less ice-time, at least compared to Stajan and Colborne. It's resulted in being benched a couple games now along with being demoted and scratched. Hartley sees it, I see it, not sure how others are missing it.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Yes, but that 29 year old is better than that 24 year old. Obviously Hartley is holding Backlund accountable, but when it comes to those defending Backlund and blasting Hartley it's always about how Backlund is younger than Stajan. So? At one point his play needs to determine his merit, not his age or potential or development.

"So?"

Backlund right now is, at worst, as bad as Stajan. That means he has 5 years to improve and reach his full potential, which he has yet to reach. Even if he doesn't reach his ceiling it means we have in all likelihood 5 more years of a player's service before he retires or moves on. Youth may not be an important factor to you, but for the rebuilding Flames it should be paramount.

Also, playing style: Stajan is one of the slowest skaters in our forward ranks. That will only get worse as he gets older. Stajan is fairly passive in his approach. Backlund is aggressive and closes down the players he's defending much quicker. He suits Hartley's style much better than Stajan.

No they aren't. He's been making more mistakes with less ice-time, at least compared to Stajan and Colborne. It's resulted in being benched a couple games now along with being demoted and scratched. Hartley sees it, I see it, not sure how others are missing it.

Stajan has made 4 more major giveaways than Backlund in 7 fewer games this season. Take +/- for what it's worth, but it's worse than Backlund's. Backlund's Corsi stats are better than Stajan's, and despite mostly starting his shifts in the defensive zone he most often shifts the play into the offensive zone. Backlund makes things happen while he's out on the ice, but when his plugger linemates can't convert or can't cover for his mistakes he gets punished. I'm not sure what Hartley sees, or what you see but I know it's not what's happening on the ice.

And, to clarify my position, I don't mind Backlund being in the trade block as long as he gets a significant return. I honestly think if he does go there is a huge chance he comes back to bite us in the arse.

[EYE_Overstand]

i was hoping that the media could get Burke to have a presser every 20-ish (per quarter season) games.

[Vinny01]

On the Fan this morning Freidnman mentioned St. Louis trying to add a goal scorer like Cammy for their playoff run and have also been in the Miller mix. Also interesting to note that Backlund played the wing with Bergland in Sweden during the lockout and they had nice chemistry. I wonder what a package of Cammy + Backlund + Butler (hometown boy) could get us?

They might move MPS, Polak? Would they move Oshie or Stewart to free up more long term cap space?

Could be a good trade partner for Calgary

[Da_Chief]

I don't get why Backlund hasn't been moved to the wing. He sucks at faceoffs and has done well on the wing.

[GoFlamesGo1989]

I'm thinking Flames should look into Brett Connolly. Big RW that skates and shoots the puck well. Also a right handed shot.

[Caged Great]

Well, the Blues have a few interesting pieces like Vannelli Schmaltz Carrier and Jaskin. If they are interested in moving several of those guys in a trade, then that might be interesting.

Just depends on what they are looking at exactly.

[neo45]

The wing would also allow him to focus more on his offensive game. I think he would show more at that position than Galiardi has

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Backlund right now is, at worst, as bad as Stajan.

Going to heavily disagree with that. As far as I'm concerned Stajan is miles ahead of Backlund today. I've got very little doubt in my mind that if they both were 29 playing the way they were it wouldn't be a question at all who was the better player. I'm not suggesting Backlund can't get better in 5 years, far from it, but based on play today Stajan is better.

Stajan was a goat. Bad trade, bad play, bad contract. Everything together made fans sour heavily on him. When he played great last season he wasn't given his due by a lot of people who were judging him on previous play (it happens all the time in sports, it's probably even a fair way of doing things). But his play over the last year now has easily been true top 9 quality.

Backlund was the hope. High draft pick, high expectations, no center depth. We've all wanted Backlund to succeed, every year it's "this is the year" every year it doesn't end up being it. He's going to be 25, it's getting close to that time when it's his play that we judge, not potential. And his play this year hasn't been top 9 quality.

Whether Stajan stays or not, Backlund's play hasn't warrant top 9 minutes. When he's gotten them he's been given them by default, and that may or may not happen again next year. Nothing about Backlund's treatment has been unfair. The center depth at the start of pre-season was Stajan and Backlund. Cammalleri was probably going to have to play it again because they had no one else to but there was literally not a better team for Backlund to play for if he wanted ice-time. And yet all it took was an 18 year old rookie and a player acquired for a 4th round pick to bump Backlund down to the fourth line.

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

On the Fan this morning Freidnman mentioned St. Louis trying to add a goal scorer like Cammy for their playoff run and have also been in the Miller mix. Also interesting to note that Backlund played the wing with Bergland in Sweden during the lockout and they had nice chemistry. I wonder what a package of Cammy + Backlund + Butler (hometown boy) could get us?

They might move MPS, Polak? Would they move Oshie or Stewart to free up more long term cap space?

Could be a good trade partner for Calgary

For me, the return would have to include Ty Rattie.

[strombad]

Here here. Skew it or defend it however you want, but Backlund isn't able to play himself into the top nine of a basement dwelling NHL squad with only 1 center who is even marginally better than a 3rd liner.

Whether he's playing the same as guys like Colborne or Stajan, he's not playing BETTER than they are, and that is a serious problem. Will he ever take the next step? I'm not sure. He's really only got 4-5 years left of "prime" where players generally put up the most points, and yet he can't even crack the top 9 regularly, let alone the top 6.

If you're looking at Colborne and Backlund and asking "Why one over the other?" it should be simple. You move Backlund because he'll net you more than a 4th rounder, but don't ever expect him to make us rue the day the Flames shipped him off.

If things go great, in 5 years time the Flames are competing for a cup while he's playing 3rd line minutes on a playoff team, 2nd line minutes on a basement dweller.

This is a rebuild, people are happy to move the vets, but sometimes you move guys who just aren't growing because they will net you good returns. With Janko, Knight, and a bevy of other 3rd line centers with 2nd line "potential" on the way, why hold on to this one?

[HelloHockeyFans]

Why are the Blues interested in Miller? Halak has carried most of the games this year for St. Louis and has been fine. He's had a couple bad games recently, but nothing really to worry about. Elliot has also been great the rare times he starts a game.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by strombad

Colborne at nearly an identical age but playing as a rookie is as productive as Backlund in his 4th full-time professional season. Playing in the NHL is the ultimate way to develop NHL level talent, so why isn't Backlund that much better despite having been in the league for 3 seasons longer?

As well, let's take PK time out shall we? I think we can both agree producing offensively on the PK isn't likely.

Backlund has played 20 minutes more ES than Colborne, 4 minutes less on the PP.

So while Backlund spends more time on the PK, he also spends more time on ES, and a small time less on the PP. Colborne also has a point on the PP, pretty insignificant, but noteworthy when Backlund has zero.

We can go back and forth on it all day, but the thing is, Backlund is expected to produce at a higher rate than every single one of our current centers. Instead, he's getting out-produced by two rookies and a 3rd liner on any competitive team. It's not good enough. He didn't start as the 4th line center, he's there because he has shown he isn't any better than that on this time. Time to move on or improve immediately.

Realistically what has Colborne done that Backlund hasn't? Different expectations ..yada..yada.yada.. I don't care. Performance is ultimately what should matter. Shouldn't it?

Backlund has faced the more difficult competition all year
Backlund has had less opportunity offensively (slightly less PP time, significantly less offensive zone starts)
Backlund is heavily outshooting Colborne this year (34 vs 21)
Backlund is the stronger player in the faceoff circle (46.1% vs 41.9%)
Backlund has less turnovers ( 8 vs 9 )
Backlund has more takeaways ( 11 vs 5 )
Backlund has more blocked shots ( 16 vs 11 )
Backlund has more assists (5 vs 4)
Backlund is 2nd in PK time per game among forwards trailing only Matt Stajan
Backlund crushes Colborne in Corsi ratings as well but I know that most around here do not care for the stat, so feel free to look it up if you so choose to.

Colborne is statistically ahead in goals (3 vs 2), plus minus (-1 vs -6) and hits (29 vs 26)

They have identical point totals (7 a piece).

I will acknowledge that these stats should always be taken with a grain of salt, but it is fairly telling that Backlund is ahead in nearly every statistical category that is tracked in the NHL despite playing in a more difficult situation (imo of course)

I personally feel the best way too resolve this issue would be by moving Matt Stajan. I don't dislike the guy and think he is an underrated talent to be sure..however he is not in the long term plans of this team (atleast he shouldn't be..) and in theory should hold some value league wide.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Realistically what has Colborne done that Backlund hasn't? Different expectations ..yada..yada.yada.. I don't care. Performance is ultimately what should matter. Shouldn't it?

Backlund has faced the more difficult competition all year
Backlund has had less opportunity offensively (slightly less PP time, significantly less offensive zone starts)
Backlund is heavily outshooting Colborne this year (34 vs 21)
Backlund is the stronger player in the faceoff circle (46.1% vs 41.9%)
Backlund has less turnovers ( 8 vs 9 )
Backlund has more takeaways ( 11 vs 5 )
Backlund has more blocked shots ( 16 vs 11 )
Backlund has more assists (5 vs 4)
Backlund is 2nd in PK time per game among forwards trailing only Matt Stajan
Backlund crushes Colborne in Corsi ratings as well but I know that most around here do not care for the stat, so feel free to look it up if you so choose to.

Colborne is statistically ahead in goals (3 vs 2), plus minus (-1 vs -6) and hits (29 vs 26)

They have identical point totals (7 a piece).

I will acknowledge that these stats should always be taken with a grain of salt, but it is fairly telling that Backlund is ahead in nearly every statistical category that is tracked in the NHL despite playing in a more difficult situation (imo of course)

I personally feel the best way too resolve this issue would be by moving Matt Stajan. I don't dislike the guy and think he is an underrated talent to be sure..however he is not in the long term plans of this team (atleast he shouldn't be..) and in theory should hold some value league wide.

That doesn't help backlunds case too much backlund at 4 years in the league is barely outplaying a rookie and his numbers show . I would put more time in developing a rookie in a rebuild than a 4th year player who just doesn't seem to get better

[Azhouse]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

MPS

Thanks but no thanks.