Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was down in Dallas last week and I spend some time talking to a very nice lady about this whole guns thing. She bought up the whole second amendment thing and the right to bear arms as being a check against the government suspending liberty.

I pointed out that if the American Government decided to uncage the military against its citizens that a bunch of poorly trained people with hand guns and shot guns and assault rifles wouldn't be able to do much against the might of their own military. Her response was a very American, but we'd die trying.

She was baffled that we didn't have carry and conceal laws in Canada, because it was fundamental to being able to protect themselves against criminal actions.

The only thing we agreed on was that there needs to be better background checks and restrictions against people that have been diagnosed with mental illnesses.

It was a very surreal conversation.

I completely agree about the better screening for those who have guns. But I would be willing to bet that the large majority of gun crimes are done with illegally obtained guns.

Now, with that being said, how do we stop criminals and gangbangers from getting them?

I've said it before and will say it again. If they banned guns here in the US and they could guarantee that every single weapon would be taken off the streets I would turn my guns in. But that whole conception is a false feeling of safety. This country is totally different from any other in the world.

I for one will never sacrifice my safety for someones perceived thoughts on guns. I've never fired at a single person in my entire life, I hope to god, Allah, cow, or whomever that I never have to.


People who don't like weapons are fine with me, they have that right to not like weapons, I respect their ideals even if they're fundamentally wrong compared to mine. I don't try to shove my ideals down their throat and I only hope that the same common courtesy comes the other way.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/terrib...500-8C11469222

MURICA! F YEAH!!

I just can't begin to wrap my head around WHY people keep loaded firearms in their house. It just blows my mind.

The time it takes to load and charge it is seconds. Like 3.

LEAVE YOUR FIREARMS UNLOADED. And for the love of God, secure them some how. ESPECIALLY if you have kids in the house.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

The editor of Guns & Ammo magazine wrote an article in which he opined that Americans who apply for a concealed carry permit should have to take a mandatory safety training course. How do you suppose the gun-crazed lunatics responded to this quite reasonable suggestion? By cancelling their subscriptions and calling for the editor to be fired*, of course!

They also started a letter-writing campaign that includes some real gems:



The People of the Gun! They've definitely entered Poe's Law territory when they use a ridiculous term like that to describe themselves.

*And they got their wish, according to this response from the magazine's publisher.

I'd be interested to know which Conceal/Carry states don't require a safety course as part of the permission process. Montana does.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

This sounds to be a conversation I would LOVE to have.

One of my favourite things is a good discussion with a reasonable person who believes something fundamentally different than me.

A conversation where we don't try and convince the other that they are wrong but merely try and understand the other's position and find flaws in the other's beliefs not to rub it in their face but make the other's argument/belief better.

To your conversation partner being able to carry a con sealed weapon is so fundamental to her sense of self and safety that shed rather due than give it up. To me (and presumably you as well) you'd rather not have the threat of the unknown gunman with a state controlled check on who has dangerous weapons.

I don't understand the gun culture, but if like to know more about it.

Most times on a discussion level I've realized that I am never going to change someones minds, especially on something like this debate. My intent going into conversations is that I want to understand the viewpoint and how they came to that point.

Like I said, this was a very lovely woman, very well educated and smart, our gun culture was completely alien to her, as was the American viewpoint to me. By the way she was shocked at that considering my military background, and my belief in very strong gun control laws.

However the civil war and revolutionary war and the old west legend are prevalent to the Americans. They fought for their independence against what they view as an occupation. In Canada we didn't as much fight for our independence as we negotiated it and defended it.

To be honest, in Canada when we learn about our charter or rights and freedoms its a few weeks in school, and its a background to any discussion, its a fairly complex document and most people don't know what's even contained in it.

In the States the Constitutions is an extremely simple yet powerful document that starts with the phrase "We the People". So while its literally a government blueprint and rights document, its a document defended by the people. The viewpoint is that a government will eventually change it so that its not a document by the people for the people and will be used against the people, so the freedoms within have to be defended with their life and any government that trys to take away those freedoms must be over thrown. So I get the 2nd amendment arming yourself to protect yourself from the government, I think its stupid since democracy is far more powerful now then back then, and the founding fathers didn't have the M1A1 main battle tank in mind when it came down to a rights to bear arms.

On the crime thing, while Canada and the U.S. were basically founded the same way. The U.S. is based around the concept of the old west, fighting lawless indians and horse thieves. Steely eyed civil war vets defending the town folks against criminals, gun fights homestead battles. When you look at Canada's history its more about the establishment of railroads explorers walking across the country. The great claim races. If you look at the histories, the America is still based around the simplest terms which was based around whatever it takes to protect your own. In Canada it with the exception of wars between the French and the British was almost outright civilized.

So I get the gun culture, and I get how they come to the view point. In terms of the concealment to protect yourself. I think it does go back to the romantic image of the dentist turned lawman etc. But when you combine it with nightly reports of murders and robbery and rape, and the gun culture and the need to stand your own ground like the lonely farmer against hordes of Indians, you get the gun culture that you have now. Then you throw in an institutional mistrust of the police and the government, and I almost get the point.

Its a negotiated history versus a romanticized history and based around a document that rises above common sense.

Like I said, I wasn't going to change her mind, there was a logic to where she was going, but she wasn't a complete kook, she knew that the system is broken and that the laws are broken, but they are only willing to take reformation so far, but if it crosses the boundary of second amendment rights the debate ends.

In Canada because we don't have a second amendment and because our constitution or bill or rights is a far more cloudy document without the place in history at the same level, we are not as fervent.

It was interesting, like I said I respected her points, but they weren't points that I would ever adopt, and vise versa.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I just can't begin to wrap my head around WHY people keep loaded firearms in their house. It just blows my mind.

The time it takes to load and charge it is seconds. Like 3.

LEAVE YOUR FIREARMS UNLOADED. And for the love of God, secure them some how. ESPECIALLY if you have kids in the house.

Heh, if your hands are shaking from fear it could take longer, or if your roused from a deep sleep and have forgotten where the bullets are.

Yeah, a loaded gun is just asking for problems.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by PIMking

I completely agree about the better screening for those who have guns. But I would be willing to bet that the large majority of gun crimes are done with illegally obtained guns.

.

I think (but have no proof, would be happy to see some) that most illegal guns were, at one time in their life legal. If there is less legal guns, perhaps there is less in the country to be stolen/lost/sold for addiction thereby becoming illegal guns.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I think (but have no proof, would be happy to see some) that most illegal guns were, at one time in their life legal. If there is less legal guns, perhaps there is less in the country to be stolen/lost/sold for addiction thereby becoming illegal guns.

Precisely. The only answer is a smaller gun industry, ergo fewer guns on the street

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I think (but have no proof, would be happy to see some) that most illegal guns were, at one time in their life legal. If there is less legal guns, perhaps there is less in the country to be stolen/lost/sold for addiction thereby becoming illegal guns.

I'd suggest they all were. I have no idea what storage laws are like in the US but in Canada, you have to at minimum:
1) Lock them up
2) or Disable them with a trigger lock or removal of the bolt
3) MUST be unloaded, regardless of classification.

If it's a restricted firearm, they must be locked up AND disabled.

Most of the stories I read about accidental shootings in the States seem to revolve around a kid just "finding" a loaded firearm. If that's the case, not hard to imagine lots of legally purchased guns being stolen from peoples home with ease.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I'd suggest they all were. I have no idea what storage laws are like in the US but in Canada, you have to at minimum:
1) Lock them up
2) Disable them with a trigger lock or removal of the bolt
3) MUST be unloaded, regardless of classification.

If it's a restricted firearm, they must be locked up AND disabled.

Most of the stories I read about accidental shootings in the States seem to revolve around a kid just "finding" a loaded firearm. If that's the case, not hard to imagine lots of legally purchased guns being stolen from peoples home with ease.

I think the laws in the US states are different. I think they are, from state to state, more lax than here in Canada.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I think (but have no proof, would be happy to see some) that most illegal guns were, at one time in their life legal. If there is less legal guns, perhaps there is less in the country to be stolen/lost/sold for addiction thereby becoming illegal guns.

Guns are illegal in Mexico but it isn't stopping them from getting them (some from our own government)

It is sad though, that so many are not responsible for their own actions and cant use basic common sense in the safety of their own weapon.

[PIMking]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I'd suggest they all were. I have no idea what storage laws are like in the US but in Canada, you have to at minimum:
1) Lock them up
2) or Disable them with a trigger lock or removal of the bolt
3) MUST be unloaded, regardless of classification.

If it's a restricted firearm, they must be locked up AND disabled.

Most of the stories I read about accidental shootings in the States seem to revolve around a kid just "finding" a loaded firearm. If that's the case, not hard to imagine lots of legally purchased guns being stolen from peoples home with ease.

As far as I know there are no Lock them up laws like in Canada. Heck up until july this year in Alabama you could have a fully loaded ar15 in the back seat of your car (or front) with out any license what so ever. But if you had a pistol, no matter if it's unloaded in the trunk and locked in a nuclear bomb shelter, you must have a license to carry it.

Stupid crap like this is what makes it even worse. We have dumb laws that make no sense that do nothing for safety.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I was down in Dallas last week and I spend some time talking to a very nice lady about this whole guns thing. She bought up the whole second amendment thing and the right to bear arms as being a check against the government suspending liberty.

I pointed out that if the American Government decided to uncage the military against its citizens that a bunch of poorly trained people with hand guns and shot guns and assault rifles wouldn't be able to do much against the might of their own military. Her response was a very American, but we'd die trying.

She was baffled that we didn't have carry and conceal laws in Canada, because it was fundamental to being able to protect themselves against criminal actions.

The only thing we agreed on was that there needs to be better background checks and restrictions against people that have been diagnosed with mental illnesses.

It was a very surreal conversation.

I agree their reason for owning guns is flawed, however ignoring her arguments, would you not think that if you were and American citizen, you may also own a gun, considering that everyone around you has one?

In my mind, the US has passed the point of no return with regard to owning guns, and it would be unrealistic to expect them to suddenly change and adopt the same policies as Canada. The historical development of their culture is much different than ours, and it if it was ever possible to get them even close to our polices on guns, it would probably take many decades.

However, I do agree that there are important changes can be made to make things safer, which could be adopted in a reasonable span of time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I agree their reason for owning guns is flawed, however ignoring her arguments, would you not think that if you were and American citizen, you may also own a gun, considering that everyone around you has one?

In my mind, the US has passed the point of no return with regard to owning guns, and it would be unrealistic to expect them to suddenly change and adopt the same policies as Canada. The historical development of their culture is much different than ours, and it if it was ever possible to get them even close to our polices on guns, it would probably take many decades.

However, I do agree that there are important changes can be made to make things safer, which could be adopted in a reasonable span of time.

I would agree with you on that because I would have been raised in a country with a boastful 2nd amendment discussion, I probably would have grown up idolizing guys like Wild Bill and Wyatt Erp etc.

I would have heard about crime ridden cities and seen the legal defense laws down there, I would have seen people with fire arms and heard their reasons.

Its to the point that gun control won't happen because it goes against ingrained freedoms and I get that.

Comparing Canada and the U.S. in terms of views towards guns is like comparing apples to Orangatangs.

On the illegal gun front the one thing I would like to add is that the American's would have to put tremendous pressure on countries like China, etc who make a fortune in the illegal gun trade since their manufacturers are basically shipping firearms by the freight load to the States and don't care about them.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I agree their reason for owning guns is flawed, however ignoring her arguments, would you not think that if you were and American citizen, you may also own a gun, considering that everyone around you has one?
.

I don't know. I just moved back to Montana. Everyone here has guns. Everyone here is packing. I don't feel less or more safe. Maybe I should feel one way or the other. I will at some point own my own guns (hunting) though I don't currently. I do not think I will ever conceal carry though. It's just not in me to do that.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I don't know. I just moved back to Montana. Everyone here has guns. Everyone here is packing. I don't feel less or more safe. Maybe I should feel one way or the other. I will at some point own my own guns (hunting) though I don't currently. I do not think I will ever conceal carry though. It's just not in me to do that.

I would guess if you have grown up in the US gun environment, you wouldn't have experienced anything else to compare it with, and would therefore have not developed any associated fear.

I think you are wise not to conceal carry. As I have said before, our RCMP have found that officers must have at least 275 hrs of training to safely use their firearms. That tells me there are probably many people in the US who have inadequate training to properly use their weapons.

As a Canadian, I do honestly feel a little safer after crossing the US border back into Canada. And I have heard many of my Canadian friends say the same thing.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by PIMking

Stupid crap like this is what makes it even worse. We have dumb laws that make no sense that do nothing for safety.

Trust me, we have our fair share of dumb laws that have nothing to do with safety as well but locking up firearms just seem like prudent ownership to me.

[Shnabdabber]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I would guess if you have grown up in the US gun environment, you wouldn't have experienced anything else to compare it with, and would therefore have not developed any associated fear.

I think you are wise not to conceal carry. As I have said before, our RCMP have found that officers must have at least 275 hrs of training to safely use their firearms. That tells me there are probably many people in the US who have inadequate training to properly use their weapons.

As a Canadian, I do honestly feel a little safer after crossing the US border back into Canada. And I have heard many of my Canadian friends say the same thing.

I've seen/heard this before and I always ask these people...

What is there to be fearful of?

[ernie]

Originally Posted by PIMking

As far as I know there are no Lock them up laws like in Canada. Heck up until july this year in Alabama you could have a fully loaded ar15 in the back seat of your car (or front) with out any license what so ever. But if you had a pistol, no matter if it's unloaded in the trunk and locked in a nuclear bomb shelter, you must have a license to carry it.

Stupid crap like this is what makes it even worse. We have dumb laws that make no sense that do nothing for safety.

I believe it depends on the state. I think some states say your gun must be stored separate from the ammo. I think.

But in the end you are fighting a culture where people quite literally think sleeping with a loaded gun under their pillow in a house with 3 kids under 5 is a prudent thing to do. For those people it won't matter what the law is as they will ignore it because they are, quite frankly, idiots.

And no I don't make this up. In our facility of about 100 people I know at least 5 that do just that. None of them actually have any sort of recent gun training and some no training at all.

What is there to be fearful of? Well in all honesty people who carry guns are just as likely (perhaps even more likely) to get angry. It is easy for them to pull a handgun on someone in the heat of the moment (it's why I think you see a lot of domestic violence end with guns). It happens. There is also a fear that your kid is going to go to a friends house and that friend has one of those idiot parents who doesn't respect guns. Sure you can be fearful of the same things in other countries but the prevalence of guns is ridiculous. How else do you explain a run on what are completely impractical guns that serve no purpose other than killing other people after every mass shooting. It's beyond bizarre.

But it is changing. A majority support restrictions on who can get a gun and how to get a gun (Washington hasn't listened yet).

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

I've seen/heard this before and I always ask these people...

What is there to be fearful of?

Getting shot in the face?

[JonDuke]

Another school shooting in Colorado.
2 injured. Thankfully no deaths, so far.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/12/1...e-high-school/

Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson says there’s an active shooting situation with possibly two victims at Arapahoe High School.

So far it’s not clear what the condition of anyone who might have been hurt is.

The school is located at 2201 East Dry Creek near University. It is part of Littleton Public Schools and has more than 2,000 students.

Some schools in the area are in lockdown mode