Is Bob Hartley the right coach for this team?

[Poe969]

I'd like some common sense when it comes to making lines. Heck, I don't care if we lose every game for the rest of the year but give our players the chances they need.

For the rest of the year (except if there are injuries) I want to see a top line of Sven-Monahan-Hudler. That line should get the most minutes, the most pp time and the most chances to produce. Backlund has to be put in situations where he can grow, not a couple minutes playing on the fourth line with scrubs.

If Hartley gets his ed out of is butt and does this, I'm fine with him.

[moon]

Originally Posted by bluck

I ask you now... has your opinion changed at all?

Nope.

Thought he sucked before, still think he sucks.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by moon

Nope.

Thought he sucked before, still think he sucks.

Finally something we can agree on.

[mustache ride]

Bob Hartley is the worst coach in Flames history. He has the worst winning percentage in the organizations history including all the young guns coaches.
Can someone point out what Hartley actually does well for this team? He hasn't shown the ability to develop the young players on this team. The team seems unprepared to start games. His constant line shuffling doesn't seem to be paying off. He isn't managing the goalie situation successfully. This guy sucks!

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Bob Hartley is the worst coach in Flames history. He has the worst winning percentage in the organizations history including all the young guns coaches.
Can someone point out what Hartley actually does well for this team? He hasn't shown the ability to develop the young players on this team. The team seems unprepared to start games. His constant line shuffling doesn't seem to be paying off. He isn't managing the goalie situation successfully. This guy sucks!

I don't like Hartely's non-defensive system. That said, he has not been given anything to work with. Flames are made up of mostly 3rd/ 4th liners and 2nd/3rd pairing d-men. He has gotten the players to buy in and play harder than past teams. As for goalies what is he suppose to do? He was given 3 back-up goalies to start the year and told to make one of them the starter.

I think he is fine for now, and if he can't install a defensive system by next year then he should be let go for someone that can.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I don't like Hartely's non-defensive system. That said, he has not been given anything to work with. Flames are made up of mostly 3rd/ 4th liners and 2nd/3rd pairing d-men. He has gotten the players to buy in and play harder than past teams. As for goalies what is he suppose to do? He was given 3 back-up goalies to start the year and told to make one of them the starter.

I think he is fine for now, and if he can't install a defensive system by next year then he should be let go for someone that can.

I think last season's roster wasn't great but it was an upgrade on the roster Brent had to work with the season before with the additions of Hudler and Wideman with Jokinen being the lone major piece that left. His team was nowhere near as competitive as Brent's leading to a fire sale at the deadline and this season after a quick start has settled into more of the same. When the team plays well for him they are fun to watch but when they are bad they are god awful defenseively which as of late has been more the norm.

Only the Oilers are worse defensively and in a couple more weeks the Flames may own that title all by themselves. IMO you can turn the corner if your team plays solid defense but has some hard luck on offense but if you can't play defense at all you will never improve or become a solid team. Bob's team can't play defense and I'm leaning to him being the 2nd worst head coach in Flames history after Greg Gilbert although Don Hay is in the conversation as well.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

I don't like Hartely's non-defensive system. That said, he has not been given anything to work with. Flames are made up of mostly 3rd/ 4th liners and 2nd/3rd pairing d-men. He has gotten the players to buy in and play harder than past teams. As for goalies what is he suppose to do? He was given 3 back-up goalies to start the year and told to make one of them the starter.

I think he is fine for now, and if he can't install a defensive system by next year then he should be let go for someone that can.

Not calling you out specifically but no matter what the team does, nobody is happy. When Brent was here everyone hated his collapsing, boring, D systems. All the talk was about "I hate being so defensively minded, I'd rather lose 6-4 than 2-1". So Hartley lets the offense open up a bit at the sacrifice of some defensive awareness and we start losing high scoring games and now everyone wishes we had a better defensive system? We're not the Blackhawks you can't have it both ways with this group unfortunately. I do agree that Hartley hasn't been great when in comes to developing the younger guys, outside of Monahan. Backlund's stuck with grinders, while Colborne logs lots of minutes despite rarely getting his name on the scoresheet. Sven being scratched for Jackman is downright insane, I don't care if we need more "size in the lineup". Jackman's size does not equal the same type of "size" as someone like Lucic, Backes, etc. I'm all for sitting the young guys every now and then and making them have to earn a spot (unlike the kids to the north), but let them make some mistakes. We are not even close to the playoffs this year, so let Sven go out there make some mistakes and learn from them. I can't imagine how frustrating it is to have to play a perfect game or your stapled to the bench. As far as the goalies, I really don't care if they're getting lit up as I don't think either Ramo or Berra are long term solutions, Gillies and Ortio are the future.

I assume Jay will be working the phones to ship out Cammy, Stajan,etc. which will force Hartley to give the young guys more minutes. It'll be vital to see how he the young guys progress under Hartley when some veterans are no longer here. I worry about ditching him for a younger coach and having an Eakins type situation.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think last season's roster wasn't great but it was an upgrade on the roster Brent had to work with the season before with the additions of Hudler and Wideman with Jokinen being the lone major piece that left. His team was nowhere near as competitive as Brent's leading to a fire sale at the deadline and this season after a quick start has settled into more of the same. When the team plays well for him they are fun to watch but when they are bad they are god awful defenseively which as of late has been more the norm.

Only the Oilers are worse defensively and in a couple more weeks the Flames may own that title all by themselves. IMO you can turn the corner if your team plays solid defense but has some hard luck on offense but if you can't play defense at all you will never improve or become a solid team. Bob's team can't play defense and I'm leaning to him being the 2nd worst head coach in Flames history after Greg Gilbert although Don Hay is in the conversation as well.

Gio = top 2 defensman
Brodie = top 4 defenseman
Wideman = middle pairing (O-minded) defenseman
Smid = bottom 4 (D-minded) defenseman
Russell = middle pairing defenseman (nice surprise)
Butler = 6/7th defenseman
Smith = 6/7th defensman
Breen = 6/7th defensman

Sorry but you're not going to have a strong defensive team with this group, especially with Gio out, no matter what the system. We need Sieloff, Wotherspoon, Ramage, Cundari to develop well and develop quickly, in addition to Ekblad

[PeteMoss]

Roster sucks... results sucks. Firing the coach at this point is like repainting a car with no engine.

No coach is going to turn this team into a winner.... its a rebuild. You lose games. Sometimes the losses are going to suck. Breathe and move on to the next one.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I think last season's roster wasn't great but it was an upgrade on the roster Brent had to work with the season before with the additions of Hudler and Wideman with Jokinen being the lone major piece that left. His team was nowhere near as competitive as Brent's leading to a fire sale at the deadline and this season after a quick start has settled into more of the same. When the team plays well for him they are fun to watch but when they are bad they are god awful defenseively which as of late has been more the norm.

Only the Oilers are worse defensively and in a couple more weeks the Flames may own that title all by themselves. IMO you can turn the corner if your team plays solid defense but has some hard luck on offense but if you can't play defense at all you will never improve or become a solid team. Bob's team can't play defense and I'm leaning to him being the 2nd worst head coach in Flames history after Greg Gilbert although Don Hay is in the conversation as well.

The difference between the Sutter and Hartley teams was Kiprusoff. In 11-12 he had a 922 save percentage, in 12-13 he had an 882 save percentage. If you're starting goalie plays like a star you'll be close to the playoffs... if he plays like an oaf you'll be a terrible team.

[Dajazz]

Once a game starts there is only so much a coach can do. His job is to prepare the players to play and develop them accordingly.

I'd think that marching order #1 was to create a hard working team, as opposed to the last few years (when CGY was called the easiest team to play against). He's done that, every opponent interview, or panel comment on TV, says its a hard working team.

Watching the few games that I do (time diff) it looks like a talent issue, mainly defense and goaltending. Ramo & Berra could barely beat out MacDonald who is playing in the AHL, we can't expect more with our talent level. D-zone coverage is hilarious at times, but thats expected with that group.

Last, its a rebuild. Worst thing that could happen this year is to end up just out of the playoffs. We need another top 5 pick.

[ComixZone]

"Flames play a boring brand of hockey and are too old! We need to rebuild! To hell with it all!"

...team starts a rebuild with youth, and a wide open offense-oriented system in order to provide entertainment value during the "dark years" while also attempting to establish a team-wide identity of hard work...

"Flames suck and we have no defense! To hell with it all!"

...seriously...all of you who clamoured for a rebuild - what did you think it'd be like? The freaking rebuild is 20 games in. This roster is built to fail in order to get better going forward through a high draft selection or two. The idea here is to build a team that has the depth to rival Chicago and Boston, nothing less. This will take time.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Bob Hartley is the worst coach in Flames history

Hartley is obviously better than Hay or Gilbert. Hay was abysmal. Gilbert ran one of our most talented youngsters out of town instead of developing him. So either you weren't old enough to appreciate how bad those guys were or you don't have a very good memory.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Hartley is obviously better than Hay or Gilbert. Hay was abysmal. Gilbert ran one of our most talented youngsters out of town instead of developing him. So either you weren't old enough to appreciate how bad those guys were or you don't have a very good memory.

foreshadowing.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Gio = top 2 defensman
Brodie = top 4 defenseman
Wideman = middle pairing (O-minded) defenseman
Smid = bottom 4 (D-minded) defenseman
Russell = middle pairing defenseman (nice surprise)
Butler = 6/7th defenseman
Smith = 6/7th defensman
Breen = 6/7th defensman

Sorry but you're not going to have a strong defensive team with this group, especially with Gio out, no matter what the system. We need Sieloff, Wotherspoon, Ramage, Cundari to develop well and develop quickly, in addition to Ekblad

Your labels are a bit confusing. What's a middle pairing defenseman? Do you mean 2nd pairing? I assume you are ranking guys based on talent and not their role on the team? So you have Gio as a top 2 defenseman, and Brodie, Wideman, and Russell as a top 4 defenseman?

I know you're trying to be critical of the team's defense, but going by your rankings, the team has a legitimate top pairing defenseman and three top 4 defenseman. You throw in Smid who is a #4/#5 guy at worst, how is that a bad group?

The reality is that Gio isn't in the lineup, Wideman isn't good defensively, Brodie has struggled, Russell isn't a top 4 defenseman on most teams, and Smid is solid and tough to play against but is a 2nd pairing guy at best.

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Hartley is obviously better than Hay or Gilbert. Hay was abysmal. Gilbert ran one of our most talented youngsters out of town instead of developing him. So either you weren't old enough to appreciate how bad those guys were or you don't have a very good memory.

Gilbert and Hay had better results ( perspective) with worse teams. That has to say something! Tell you what, In my post i listed the things i think he is doing poorly.
-Poor lines
-Not developing young talent
-Not handling the goalie situation successfully
-Not having a game plan to start games
-Not managing the game succesfully
Just tell me two things you think you think he is doing a good job at.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

Gilbert and Hay had better results ( perspective) with worse teams. That has to say something! Tell you what, In my post i listed the things i think he is doing poorly.
-Poor lines
-Not developing young talent
-Not handling the goalie situation successfully
-Not having a game plan to start games
-Not managing the game succesfully
Just tell me two things you think you think he is doing a good job at.

Well pretty hard to compare across eras. In the old NHL it was arguably a lot easier to win with a bad team because you could teach less talented players how to clutch and grab and it would negate a lot of the skill differential. Go look at our roster in 2003-2004 and say with a straight face that we had the talent to compete for the cup. D. Sutter had those boys working as a team, forechecking with good speed, and clutching and grabbing with the best of them. That was the old NHL. Teams with crap for talent can no longer clutch and grab their way to victory. Low talent teams can really only compete by having an all star goaltender (see Nashville when Rinne was on his game.)

Saying Gilbert and Hay were more successful is a pretty dubious claim. I'm not sure we can read much into the lockout shortened season where Hartley didn't get a training camp and Kiprusoff was bizarrely out of form. And this season the divisions have changed and we're in an absolutely brutal division, a division much deeper and much tougher than Hay or Gilbert was in. So basically you can't directly compare these eras because Hay/Gilbert coached in the clutch and grab era in a completely different division. IMO from watching the team in both eras I think Gilbert and Hay are clearly far inferior as coaches. Their NHL coaching track record since being fired tends to support the idea that they weren't the best NHL coaches. Hartley's resume is obviously a lot more impressive at both the NHL and other pro levels. Monahan's been handled well so far IMO. Guys like Joe Thornton had WAY worse NHL rookie season. Imagine if we were playing Monahan on the 4th line, oh my.

I think the goalie situation has been handled perfectly fine and I'm surprised when I see people jumping all over that. MacDonald wasn't great and got demoted as a result. Ramo hasn't been great overall. Berra has been the best of the bunch and thus has won the starters job. I don't see any issues here at all. IMO Berra has won the starters job for now and Hartley has recognized that. We don't really have a fully developed #1 goalie so they are going to look bad sometimes. People are going to have to get over that. The people ready to give up on Berra after a couple flukey goals are out to lunch IMO.

Other positives
-He's got the team working pretty hard. To me this isn't the floaty, do nothing team of Iginla's late tenure. The Flames just looked horrible at times under Brent Sutter. Remember getting into a playoff position late one year and then losing badly to the Coyotes and then getting trounced by the horribad Oilers? And that is when we were supposed to be competing for the cup. We haven't rolled over in many games this season. We used to do that fairly often.
-Despite B. Sutter saying he liked to activate the defensemen, Hartley has his defensemen doing this much more successfully. Perhaps it's personnel, perhaps it's Hartley.

We've been competitive and having a chance to win in almost every game. And that is with a pretty bad roster. In a pretty tough division.

I think Sven has been pretty inconsistent and that it's not a crime to sit a youngster in a rebuild. I have been more disappointed with his handling of Backlund than I have his handling of Sven. I like the things Sven is saying, I think he's starting to get it. Brodie and Russell seem to be flourishing under Hartley so far.

Obviously I'd do a lot of the lines differently and so would most people. But I'd say the same of almost every coach we've ever had. The redundancy of Bouma/Jackman/McGrattan is more on Feaster right now IMO and I think when Stajan/Cammalleri are eventually dealt it will force Bob to use his youngsters more.

Overall I think Hartley has been a lot better than I thought he was going to be when he was first hired. I like his passion, his emphasis on hard work, his entertaining style. These aren't your dreadfully boring Flames of past years. While fans wish development was the top and only priority, the coach still has to emphasize winning and making sure the players don't end up with the same mentality of the losers to the north. So sometimes he has to make hard decisions that he thinks may help us be competitive even if fans just want to see him ride the rookies.

This team has a lack of talent. And it currently has a couple major injuries that have really tested our depth. The lack of talent makes the coach look bad. Frankly I think if Scotty Bowman were coaching this team the people that hate Hartley would be saying a lot of the same things about Bowman.

I think people have short memories. How did the team look early on with a healthy Gio? People are underestimating his loss. I said before the season began that we couldn't sustain 1-2 injuries in the top 4 defense.

Coaches aren't magicians that can turn a roster with a suspect defense, mediocre goaltending and mediocre forwards into world beaters. Based on this thread it seems a surprising number of people expect Hartley to perform miracles. He isn't turning water into wine and he's not going to get a consistent winner out of this roster no matter how great of a coach he is. I'm surprised we've looked as good as we have and that is a credit to Hartley IMO. Everybody expected us to roll over and be the worst team in the league, an easy victory. We've been far from that IMO. I think a healthy Gio would make a big difference. We lack talent up front in a big way. Cammalleri is our only legitimate 1st line player at this point.

Certain types of fans have to have scapegoats. They need specific people to blame after each loss. Hartley is a convenient one for some of you but I don't really buy it. The easy answer is that our team isn't that good, we're gonna lose during this rebuild and you don't need to scapegoat people after each game. If we win be happy. If we were close be happy. If you see some progress by some of our players be happy. If they work hard and entertain be happy. That's my philosophy. Clearly others believe in the philosophy of assigning blame, whining, moaning, crying, etc. It's the GM! It's the coach! It's the vets! It's the kids! OMG The line combos! How you could sit player X! How come Hartley with his Playstation controller didn't get player X to retaliate after event Y happened because clearly the coach is responsible for every single thing every player does or does not do, right?

Our young kids aren't going to develop over night and we're not going to exit this rebuild 1/4 of the way into the first season of it. Some of you need to try to take a longer view approach to this whole rebuild thing or it is going to drive you bonkers. Are the Flames showing more heart, hard work and commitment to defense this season than the Oilers have shown in their rebuild? If the answer is yes then clearly Hartley is far from the worst coach we could have during the rebuild.

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well pretty hard to compare across eras.

Winning percentage is a fair enough stat to measure success or lack of

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

In the old NHL it was arguably a lot easier to win with a bad team

Not true and with fake parity being the way it is, Hartley's lack of success is even greater

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Monahan's been handled well so far IMO.

The only thing protecting Monhan right now is Hartley's hard on for Sven and Backlund. He has definitely hit the wall these past ten games.

As for the team working hard and being well prepared. Agree to disagree i guess. I dont see it. They have come out of the gate slow in most of their recent games and those comebacks seem more like the opposing teams letting their foot of the gas then the Flames battling back.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by FAN

Your labels are a bit confusing. What's a middle pairing defenseman? Do you mean 2nd pairing? I assume you are ranking guys based on talent and not their role on the team? So you have Gio as a top 2 defenseman, and Brodie, Wideman, and Russell as a top 4 defenseman?

I know you're trying to be critical of the team's defense, but going by your rankings, the team has a legitimate top pairing defenseman and three top 4 defenseman. You throw in Smid who is a #4/#5 guy at worst, how is that a bad group?

The reality is that Gio isn't in the lineup, Wideman isn't good defensively, Brodie has struggled, Russell isn't a top 4 defenseman on most teams, and Smid is solid and tough to play against but is a 2nd pairing guy at best.

Well, since there is a top pair and a bottom pair, the middle pair is probably the one in between those 2 . I was just trying to point out that on a good team, the Gio is probably the only guy that is a top pairing guy. Other than that you have Brodie who would likely slot on a 2nd pairing on most teams. Russell, although he's been a pleasant surprise as a 3/4 guy here, is definitely bottom 2 on most teams. Wideman is a legit 3/4 Offensive/PP D-man. Smid is a 5/6 defensive D-man on any other team. Finally, Butler, Smith and Breen sit in the pressbox on a lot of other teams. So essentially what we should have:

1st pair: Gio - ???
2nd pair: Brodie - Wideman
3rd pair: Russell - Smid
7th Defensemen: Butler, Smith, Breen.

But, with an already weak D corps in addition to Gio's injury we forced with a lineup of:

1st pair: Brodie - Butler
2nd pair: Russell - Wideman
3rd pair: Smid - Smith/Breen

Everyone but Wideman and Smid are playing above their ideal slot with no true #1 Dman. Sorry, but no matter who the coach is, this will never be a strong defensive group and is liable to get lit up, as evidenced. Hopefully next year we can have:

1st pair: Gio - Ekblad
2nd pair: Wideman - Brodie
3rd pair: Smid - Ramage/Wotherspoon/Cundari/Sieloff

Not upper echelon, but better for sure. Who knows, maybe Feaster could even get a UFA like Girardi (pipe dream) or Ericsson etc. to round out the defense. Personally, due to the fact that barring any major advances, next years team will also probably be a bottom 5 team, I'd rather use those spots to develop some of our younger guys.

[bubbsy]

i'm fine wiht hartley for the most part.

My only concerns are his inability to have the team tighten the game up when it calls for it (ie. 3rd period leads). However, i think the choking we see is attributed to being a young team that makes mistakes, questionable goaltending, and not having the skill level to weather a storm when other teams smell blood.

if he can get the team to play hard for 60 minutes, he'll be considered a success in my eyes, regardless of results