Team Canada at Mid November

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Whose spot does he take? Doughty's, Pietrangelo's, or Weber's? It seems to me that Doughty is the possibility and I'm taking DD over PK.

Yup, I was thinking of Doughty.

[Hells Bells]

Jeff Carter is a guy I really like on the big ice.

It's too bad for his injury but he has plenty of time to come back strong.

I'd choose him over Giroux or Marleau.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Anduril

While it would be nice to have a little bit more grit on the LH pairing, it's not like the offensive defensemen are lacking defensively. Especially with the likes of Weber, Pietrangelo and Bouwmeester.

Bouwmeester isn't an offensive defenceman. And neither Weber or Pietrangelo have the ability Subban has to wind up in his own zone and slice through a defence to gain the zone. I think that's an element Team Canada would be foolish not to take with them to Socchi. No, he's not exactly Chara in his own zone, but neither was Paul Coffey, and he made plenty of Canada Cup teams.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by moon

Hamhuis is very inferior defensively to everyone I have on my list other than Subban who I have as a 7th man and PP guy.

Yeah you actually don't know what you're talking about at all. Hamhuis is far more reliable defensively than Kris Letang as well as Subban, and is better than Bouw and Doughty in his own end. Not only that, but he has an excellent breakout pass - search youtube for his 150 foot lob breakway pass to Stamkos in the WHC last year for an overtime game winner for an international example. He won't give you much in the offensive zone because he won't gamble, but he will hold the puck in, make smart passes to continue the zone time, and if there's an opportunity get the puck on net (albeit not with a ton of velocity).

The guy is the definition of a safe top-pairing defenseman. Safe isn't what you want if you're picking the dream team, but once again, this isn't an all star roster we're making up here and if you take that tack you're asking for a disappointing result.

Adding Hamhuis and removing one of Weber Doughty Pietrangelo makes this team much, much worse.

Yeah it would, but again you're not making any sense. Those three guys are locks and all three play the right side, and are on my roster in post 1. The question is whether adding Hamhuis instead of an out-of-position Letang makes the team worse, and the answer is no, it doesn't.

We don't need the guy on our third pairing rushing the puck up the ice to create offense, we have Crosby, Getzlaf, Doughty, Perry, Toews, Duchene, Tavares and a bunch of other guys to do that.

Anyway people are going to disagree with this and try to just make their HUT roster from NHL 14, but I'm comforted by the fact that at least Mike Babcock apparently agrees with me.

[M*A*S*H 4077]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Really hope Duchene makes it. The guy is so fast, he'll be a monster on the big ice.

At this point I'd be shocked if he doesn't make it. He's played on the wing as well as center with the Avs so he has that working in his favour.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Yeah you actually don't know what you're talking about at all. Hamhuis is far more reliable defensively than Kris Letang as well as Subban, and is better than Bouw and Doughty in his own end. Not only that, but he has an excellent breakout pass - search youtube for his 150 foot lob breakway pass to Stamkos in the WHC last year for an overtime game winner for an international example. He won't give you much in the offensive zone because he won't gamble, but he will hold the puck in, make smart passes to continue the zone time, and if there's an opportunity get the puck on net (albeit not with a ton of velocity).

I am not sure why you are bringing up Subban and Letang as I don't think either guy should be used 5 on 5 and only had Subban listed as my 7th guy/PP specialist.

There is no way Hamhuis is better in his own zone than Bouwmeester and Doughty but I guess we will have to disagree about that fact.

I am sure I can get plenty of nice plays from other guys that are comparable, especially Doughty from last Olympics where he was the best defenseman for Team Canada. Good for him for making a nice play top level defenders should make great plays every once and while, if not more often.

Yeah it would, but again you're not making any sense. Those three guys are locks and all three play the right side, and are on my roster in post 1. The question is whether adding Hamhuis instead of an out-of-position Letang makes the team worse, and the answer is no, it doesn't.

Again with Letang which makes no sense because I have never included him on my roster. So what if he is a better option than an out of place Letang if that is not who he is competing with?

I included those 3 because Keith and Seabrook should be a lock pairing based on how they have played these past 4 years together as well as their individual skill. Bouwmeester is a LH defenseman already and better than Hamhuis so doesn't make sense to replace him. That leaves Doughty, Weber and Pietrangelo as the last 3 guys on my team in the top 6 and they are all RH so if you are so concerned with having no RH guys playing on the left then one of them goes.

We don't need the guy on our third pairing rushing the puck up the ice to create offense, we have Crosby, Getzlaf, Doughty, Perry, Toews, Duchene, Tavares and a bunch of other guys to do that.

No but we don't need the third pairing guys to be lesser defenders with less offense than guys we leave at home.

Anyway people are going to disagree with this and try to just make their HUT roster from NHL 14, but I'm comforted by the fact that at least Mike Babcock apparently agrees with me.

I am not sure what the HUT roster from NHL 14 means but I want the roster that best gives Canada a chance at winning a Gold medal and bringing lesser talent isn't the way to go. I am also not sure how you can say Mike Babcock agrees with you since we haven't seen the roster or pairings yet. Especially when last year they went with 4 right handed guys and two left handed defensemen.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

Bouwmeester without his history with Pietrangelo is still likely in the top 8 Canadian defensemen and he has won World Championships (not all that impressive) and a World Cup (Impressive) so not sure you need to go with the never won BS.

Regehr would rank somewhere around top 50 for Canadian defensemen and drop to the low 90's based on being on international ice so it is a ridiculous notion that he should be there let alone ahead of Bouwmeester.

The Sisters, Kane and Ovechkin have played against all defensemen in the league and almost always won. That is why they are elite players. If that is the standard for making Team Canada then we may be down to 2 or 3 guys if that.

I don't think that Regehr will be considered for the Olympic team BUT since Doughty and Regehr are a better defensive pair than Bouwmeester and Pietrangelo you have to look at Bouwmeester on his own merits.




Weber
Keith
Seabrook
Pietrangelo
Doughty
Subban
Green
Phanuef
Letang
Andrew McDonald
Hamonic
Franson
Bieksa
Hamhuis
Wideman
Giordano
Brodie
Petry
Brian Campbell

are Canadian D-men who would not be traded even up for Bouwmeester.


Fowler
Beauchimen
Methot
Phillips
Vlasic

Would be reasonable trades for Bouwmeester with a swap of draft picks.


Bouwmeester got traded for what was supposed to be a 25th pick overall an AHL D_man and a long shot goalie prospect.

This was at the height of his trade value when the teams were gearing up for their SC runs.

there is no way the Flames would trade any one of Brodie, Wideman or Giordano to get Bouwmeester back.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by moon

I included those 3 because Keith and Seabrook should be a lock pairing based on how they have played these past 4 years together as well as their individual skill. Bouwmeester is a LH defenseman already and better than Hamhuis so doesn't make sense to replace him.

Yeah I can't agree with either of these things - Hamhuis and Bouwmeester is at best a wash from where I sit, and the only reason I'd take Bouw first is to pair him with AP.

Keith carries Seabrook and makes him look better than he is. He's good, but he's nowhere near the top of Canada's RH depth chart.

Here is how I look at it. You can take 3 RH defensemen, and 3 LH defensemen. Then pick a 7th guy, regardless of handedness.

Your 3 RH defensemen are Weber, Doughty and Pietrangelo, with an argument to be made for Subban. So Subban's probably the 7th guy.

Your LH guy is Keith. Now pick two more LH guys.

I am thankful that this appears to be how Babcock is doing it.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I am thankful that this appears to be how Babcock is doing it.

Based on what?

It wasn't how they did it last time.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Weber
Keith
Seabrook
Pietrangelo
Doughty
Subban
Green
Phanuef
Letang
Andrew McDonald
Hamonic
Franson
Bieksa
Hamhuis
Wideman
Giordano
Brodie
Petry
Brian Campbell

are Canadian D-men who would not be traded even up for Bouwmeester.


Fowler
Beauchimen
Methot
Phillips
Vlasic

Would be reasonable trades for Bouwmeester with a swap of draft picks.

That list is a joke not just because of the fact that you include Americans for some reason but for the fact that half of the top list are worse than Bouw and nobody on the bottom list is at his level.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I don't think that Regehr will be considered for the Olympic team BUT since Doughty and Regehr are a better defensive pair than Bouwmeester and Pietrangelo you have to look at Bouwmeester on his own merits.

Weber
Keith
Seabrook
Pietrangelo
Doughty
Subban
Green
Phanuef
Letang
Andrew McDonald
Hamonic
Franson
Bieksa
Hamhuis
Wideman
Giordano
Brodie
Petry
Brian Campbell

Lol way to include people that are not even close to make the list look much longer then it is.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Not sure if this is the sign of the zombie apocalypse, but I agree with moon on this one. I can't see how anyone can believe Babcock is doing it "his way", when Babcock hasn't done anything.
Personally, I can't imagine him insisting on 3 RD and 3 LD if it meant picking an inferior player. Perhaps a guy like ME Vlasic gets a longer look because he is an LD, but he should be picked on merit, not lefthandedness (and because he is better than Hamhuis)

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by moon

Based on what?

It wasn't how they did it last time.

Babcock has said as much in interviews. Yzerman has said that he would prefer it but it's not the be all end all for him - citing 80's red army squads with 6 LHD. I'd say "this isn't the 80's anymore, Steve", but whatever.

Anyway, the D pairs for 2010 were,

Niedermayer (L) - Weber (R)
Keith (L) - Doughty (R)
Pronger (L) - Boyle (R)

So you're wrong, again.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Babcock has said as much in interviews. Yzerman has said that he would prefer it but it's not the be all end all for him - citing 80's red army squads with 6 LHD. I'd say "this isn't the 80's anymore, Steve", but whatever.

Anyway, the D pairs for 2010 were,

Niedermayer (L) - Weber (R)
Keith (L) - Doughty (R)
Pronger (L) - Boyle (R)

So you're wrong, again.

I missed Keith so it does look like they had 4 RH and 3 LH with Seabrook playing a lot as well and those pairing being switched a lot as I saw Pronger and Nieds out plenty without concern from Babcock.

So it appears that they would prefer it but like I said aren't going to hurt the team to make it so. Looks like you are wrong, again.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by moon

I missed Keith so it does look like they had 4 RH and 3 LH with Seabrook playing a lot as well and those pairing being switched a lot as I saw Pronger and Nieds out plenty without concern from Babcock.
So it appears that they would prefer it but like I said aren't going to hurt the team to make it so. Looks like you are wrong, again.

Hahaha... oh Moon. I just proved that you were completely wrong. You respond by accepting that, but immediately proceed make up some bullcrap about Niedermayer and Pronger playing lots of minutes together which occurred only in your head, and then somehow decide that you've got the upper hand in this argument. You're hilarious.

The only time the above pairings were departed from was on changes during play, and when Seabrook came on to play (almost always) with Keith. The gold medal game is available in full on Youtube. Look at every faceoff and you will see that Canada lines up a LHD with a RHD. It's not just that "they would prefer it", it's 100% what they did. And Babcock has echoed the same sentiment in interviews this time around.

[moon]

What are you talking made up in my head?

I saw them on the ice together. I am not sure what the big deal is you really think Babcock was so strict with the lines that he didn't shake them up at times or play guys together on the PP or PK or at various times in the game?

And I didn't say big minutes I said plenty as in it wasn't a one off situation or while killing a penalty that another defensemen took.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Lol way to include people that are not even close to make the list look much longer then it is.

So as GM of the Flames you would trade Gio or Wideman or Brodie for Bouwmeester?

You understand that the Flames did have Bouwmeester for the last 4 disappointing years?

I simply don't understand how Bouwmeester had such a low trade value 8 months ago and now he is being considered one of the top 10 Canadian D-men.

He wasn't close to being worth a top 15 draft pick overall. There were 6 D men picked in the top 15 overall in the 2013 draft. If Feaster was able to change Bouwmeester into any one of these 6 the Flames might not have brought in Burke to be his boss.


PS Babcock/Holland did not think Bouwmeester was worth Detroit's 20th pick overall. They thought that Quincey was worth their 2012 19th pick overall.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

I simply don't understand how Bouwmeester had such a low trade value 8 months ago and now he is being considered one of the top 10 Canadian D-men

Really? Because his contract sucked and he's over 30, perhaps? Because there are other things besides quality of play that determine a player's value?

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So as GM of the Flames you would trade Gio or Wideman or Brodie for Bouwmeester?

Probably not Brodie based on age but only age. If the Flames were a contender this year and would only have the guys for this season then I would easily take Bouwmeester over all 3.

I simply don't understand how Bouwmeester had such a low trade value 8 months ago and now he is being considered one of the top 10 Canadian D-men.

Because only certain teams could afford to add a guy with his contract and the cap coming down and plus take away any team not making the play-offs last year. Plus the teams that were talked about having interest in him Detroit and St. Louis are two of the top management teams out there so do you think they are so stupid or perhaps your bias against him is clouding reality?

He wasn't close to being worth a top 15 draft pick overall. There were 6 D men picked in the top 15 overall in the 2013 draft. If Feaster was able to change Bouwmeester into any one of these 6 the Flames might not have brought in Burke to be his boss.

Why would a bottom 15 trade away their first round pick for a short term guy? Has that ever happened at the trade deadline?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by moon

Probably not Brodie based on age but only age. If the Flames were a contender this year and would only have the guys for this season then I would easily take Bouwmeester over all 3.

The Flames were a contender when they brought in Bouwmeester the first time..... How did that turn out?

PS Babcock/Holland did not think Bouwmeester was worth Detroit's 20th pick overall. They thought that Quincey was worth their 2012 19th pick overall.