Team Canada at Mid November

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Dogbert

I have no idea which guy plays which side. Just picked seven defensemen.

Babcock will not do this. I will reiterate what I said earlier in the thread: the easiest way to lose this tournament and disappoint millions of Canadians is to have a defenseman play his wrong side on a wider ice surface he's not used to, only to get walked around by some Euro in the third period of a close game. This format often means one mistake and you're out. We won in 2010, but we were one mistake away from losing to Slovakia instead. That's how this tournament works.

I realize it's tempting to try to make an all star team or your HUT team from NHL 14 or whatever, try to make a roster that will score 10 goals a game and laugh at the inferior other side, but that's no reality. The team needs to win hockey games, and for that you can't have a bunch of defensemen, none of whom are strict stay-at-home types, playing out of position.

Forwards can play out of position a little easier, because first there's less at stake if your gap is a bit off if you're a forward, and second because modern NHL systems are generally set up as 1F 2F 3F depending on who gets across the blue line first. Not to mention a lot of these guys have at various times played positions other than centre. It's not as big a transition going from C to RW as it is from RD to LD.

Originally Posted by codynw

Toews on the fourth line? HAHAHA

Yeah I have no problem with Toews playing on the fourth line considering that's what he did in 2010 and was probably the best player in the tournament. For me, he either plays with Sid, or he plays with Bergeron and probably Benn or Couture on the "yeah right as if you have a chance of scoring against us" line.

[moon]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Locks on the team: Weber, Doughty, Keith and Pietrangelo..... basically in that order.

So Keith (+3) gets to bring along Seabrook. (+4) (makes sense Seabrook might make it on his own especially is one of the big 4 get hurt)

and Pietroangelo (+6) brings along Bouwmeester (+8)

But Doughty (+2) does not get to bring along Regehr (+4)?

If Regehr's mobility disqualifies him then Bouwmeester's total lack of ever winning or excelling in important games takes him off the list.

Regehr /Doughty won 4 straight in the playoffs over Alex Pietrangelo/Bouwmeester.

Phanuef (+9) the clear cut #1 on a top 8 team gets no consideration?

Where would Bouwmeester rank if he was not Pietrangelo's partner? Would he be in the top 12 based on his play on the 2012-13 Flames? Did he get that much better after leaving the Flames. Is he a guy you want out against Ovechkin or the Sedin's in the Olympics? or Backes /kane? He played against these guys as a Flame and they almost always won.

Bouwmeester without his history with Pietrangelo is still likely in the top 8 Canadian defensemen and he has won World Championships (not all that impressive) and a World Cup (Impressive) so not sure you need to go with the never won BS.

Regehr would rank somewhere around top 50 for Canadian defensemen and drop to the low 90's based on being on international ice so it is a ridiculous notion that he should be there let alone ahead of Bouwmeester.

The Sisters, Kane and Ovechkin have played against all defensemen in the league and almost always won. That is why they are elite players. If that is the standard for making Team Canada then we may be down to 2 or 3 guys if that.

[Dogbert]

Originally Posted by codynw

Toews was 21 in 2010, he's come a long way since then. There's no way he's playing on the 4th line.

Of the players I put on the regular lines, Toews is the best suited to play the style of game that's needed on the checking line. Who would you rather have in that role who's also on my projected roster?

[moon]

Originally Posted by codynw

I guess you're right, it's still weird to see it typed like that. I just can't see Toews on the wing though, he's one of the best faceoff guys in the NHL.

I agree I think Bergeron will play wing on that line.

[19Yzerman19]

I've always thought of Bergeron as the superior face off guy to Toews, but it doesn't really matter. Regardless, the guy who's going well should be taking the draws even if he flips to wing after the puck drops.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I've always thought of Bergeron as the superior face off guy to Toews, but it doesn't really matter. Regardless, the guy who's going well should be taking the draws even if he flips to wing after the puck drops.

They basically cancelled each other ouch in the last playoff series. I'd want to give an edge to Bergeron but that would be based off of limited viewing and gut feeling than actual statistics.

[moon]

The worst thing the team can do is bring lesser talented guys to try and fill roles including LH defensemen playing the left side.

It isn't like this is a Canadian only issue as guys in the NHL play on their off sides all the time.

Bringing in guys like Hamhuis just because he is left handed is a sure way to watch teams walk around us and score easy goals.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I've always thought of Bergeron as the superior face off guy to Toews, but it doesn't really matter. Regardless, the guy who's going well should be taking the draws even if he flips to wing after the puck drops.

It actually makes both better. Not sure what Babcock does maybe he flips a coin or goes gut feel or goes strong side depending where the faceoff is located IE Toews is Left handed shooter and Bergeron is Right handed shooter. Regardless either one knows they have the ability to cheat a little bit more knowing they got one heck of a guy to come in if they get punted by the linesman.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

I've always thought of Bergeron as the superior face off guy to Toews, but it doesn't really matter. Regardless, the guy who's going well should be taking the draws even if he flips to wing after the puck drops.

They have basically been exactly the same over their careers although I think Bergeron is slightly ahead in career FO% based on one year he was over 60% but every other year they are roughly at 59% each.

I think Bergeron plays wing on the line because he has for Canada before and I like Toews ability to control the play/set things up if he is in the middle, but obviously they can switch out FO's depending on who is better on what side, the situation etc.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

It actually makes both better. Not sure what Babcock does maybe he flips a coin or goes gut feel or goes strong side depending where the faceoff is located IE Toews is Left handed shooter and Bergeron is Right handed shooter. Regardless either one knows they have the ability to cheat a little bit more knowing they got one heck of a guy to come in if they get punted by the linesman.

Agree with everything here and very good point about them being different hands; who takes the draw likely depends on the opponent and what side of the ice it's on.

Originally Posted by moon

It isn't like this is a Canadian only issue as guys in the NHL play on their off sides all the time.

First, we're not in the NHL, we're on a rink that's some 15 feet wider. Angles and gap control are a problem.

Secondly, you're absolutely out of your mind. Of COURSE it's an issue in the NHL. Guys playing on their opposite sides often have significant difficulty adjusting. This is common knowledge. Hell, all you have to do is look at the lineup of teams each year looking to add a defenseman with a particular shooting hand to fill a gap in the lineup.

Hamhuis isn't an inferior defenseman, he's as capable as most of that roster (arguably all of it) in his own end. He just doesn't have the offensive game to go with it. So talking about teams walking around him because he's somehow worse than PK Subban or Kris Letang at defence is hilarious.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Anduril

They basically cancelled each other ouch in the last playoff series. I'd want to give an edge to Bergeron but that would be based off of limited viewing and gut feeling than actual statistics.

Stat-wise, Bergeron has a very slight edge. Last season Bergeron won 62% and Toews won 60%

[19Yzerman19]

^That's pretty meaningless. I suspect that Toews faced tougher competition on a nightly basis. Bergeron was going against the likes of Tyler Bozak and Cody Hodgson. Think about the centremen in the West and particularly the central.

[codynw]

Also, how would you feel about Bernier possibly playing his way onto the team? I doubt he'd be given the starting job, but he's so good. There's no way he's not being given a serious look for at least a backup/third goalie position.

[19Yzerman19]

Yeah there is. You can't take a guy based on a quarter of a season's work. That's nuts. Even if we took two teams he wouldn't be on either.

[moon]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Secondly, you're absolutely out of your mind. Of COURSE it's an issue in the NHL. Guys playing on their opposite sides often have significant difficulty adjusting. This is common knowledge. Hell, all you have to do is look at the lineup of teams each year looking to add a defenseman with a particular shooting hand to fill a gap in the lineup.

Hamhuis isn't an inferior defenseman, he's as capable as most of that roster (arguably all of it) in his own end. He just doesn't have the offensive game to go with it. So talking about teams walking around him because he's somehow worse than PK Subban or Kris Letang at defence is hilarious.

Hamhuis is very inferior defensively to everyone I have on my list other than Subban who I have as a 7th man and PP guy.

Adding Hamhuis and removing one of Weber Doughty Pietrangelo makes this team much, much worse.

[moon]

Originally Posted by codynw

Also, how would you feel about Bernier possibly playing his way onto the team? I doubt he'd be given the starting job, but he's so good. There's no way he's not being given a serious look for at least a backup/third goalie position.

if they were going with Luongo/Broudeur as the top 2 goalies maybe I could see them wanting a young guys as the 3rd goalie to get experience for a possible 2018 Olympics or future World Cup, but since Price is basically a lock no reason to bring Bernier to fill that role.

Too little of a track record to bring him even as the 3rd guy. Perhaps if he had a World Junior record like a Mason or Price you might be able to make the argument but he doesn't even have that international background to use.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Yeah there is. You can't take a guy based on a quarter of a season's work. That's nuts. Even if we took two teams he wouldn't be on either.

I didn't say he would get the job, I just said there's no way he isn't being looked at. If he's still playing this way at the end of December, does he get a spot on the team?

[codynw]

Originally Posted by moon

if they were going with Luongo/Broudeur as the top 2 goalies maybe I could see them wanting a young guys as the 3rd goalie to get experience for a possible 2018 Olympics or future World Cup, but since Price is basically a lock no reason to bring Bernier to fill that role.

Too little of a track record to bring him even as the 3rd guy. Perhaps if he had a World Junior record like a Mason or Price you might be able to make the argument but he doesn't even have that international background to use.

Yea lack of experience is my only issue with him (and I guess small sample size). Not just international experience, but he has no playoff experience yet either. Probably a real longshot that he makes it. It's still awesome to see some good, young Canadian goalies starting to appear again.

[H2SO4(aq)]

Really hope Duchene makes it. The guy is so fast, he'll be a monster on the big ice.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by codynw

I didn't say he would get the job, I just said there's no way he isn't being looked at. If he's still playing this way at the end of December, does he get a spot on the team?

Honestly and just my opinion I agree with Yzerman. Too many good Canadian Goalies who will go before Bernier this year as a good quarter doesn't earn him 3rd String. Discussed likely but it won't happen, or at least in my opinion it won't.